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Direct to computer recording


Jeff Wexler

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I have started new topic here to address the whole area of recording directly to a computer: laptop, Mac Mini, PC (or whatever anybody else comes up with). I recognize that ALLthe digital recording devices we use are "computers" but this topic will be able to focus on those setups that typically use a personal computer running a mainstream OS and appropriate software. I thank Darren for posting the images of his cart with a full Metacorder setup using the MOTU Traveler and the Yamaha Mixer. We can all look forward to some interesting discussions of this method of working. I hope as well we can get those who are using BoomRecorder on board here as there will be a fair amount of overlap of these setups.

Note: just because I started this under a new topic, still feel free to post wherever you wish. I imagine everyone has settled down with this forum and they do the same as I do: login and then look at either the 'Show unread posts since last visit" or the "Recent Posts" listr which shows the 12 mosat recent posts (whatever topic they were posted to).

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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hi jeff,

i'm absolutely at home at jw_forum.

apropos computers (let's use the term for those machines that are not propreitary systems built exclusively for audio recording) on the field, i've been conferring with Darren for a while now.

by now, most issues - like powering etc seem to be solved. software - we have a choice - metacorder and boomrecorder - according to needs and comfort.

when mixers moved from nagras to DAT and then from DAT to devas/cantars/portadrives/744s etc., each movement had advantages.

in 2006, the acceleration of advancements in computer technology are much more than say even five years back. a lot of new developments are happening even in the good old PC architecture - with Intel *T (VT) and AMD Pacifica, to mention a few. hardware is getting smaller and software crossing more OS borders.

i used to think i should have been born a few decades back, when it was more exciting - maybe when mag was invented and became the standard professional format, when mag and LP still co-existed... i used to think it was a simpler world then, recording was more ears and miking techniques.

i can't go back in time.

in my own funny way, every new development in 2006 is something i want to be excited about, and i really am! what seemed complicated in 2004, I brush away now. It is definitely very much challenging to us - as mixers - to keep abreast of computer technology in general. i do spend a lot of time trying to be on top of things, and i enjoy it.

sometimes, i also feel like going and doing a gig with a good old Nagra - change reels every 20 min, write a good old sound report, and mix!

I would definitely be very interested in this thread, I thank you for initiating it.

best

-vin

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Thanks to Darren for the pix.  Are you burning your deliverables on the PB DVD burner, or an external one?  I didn't see any backup machine on your cart, do you roll anything else while rolling Metacorder?  Nice looking rig--great idea having the PB inside the box--shades the screen--good for rain and dust etc.  Do you transport it in your own van or are you working off camera or sound/video trucks supplied by the production?

thanks

Philip Perkins

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i used to think i should have been born a few decades back, when it was more exciting - maybe when mag was invented and became the standard professional format, when mag and LP still co-existed... i used to think it was a simpler world then, recording was more ears and miking techniques.

i can't go back in time.-vin

I feel the same way about the history (and I have been around long enought to have actively worked in several decades of that history). What you say about "a simpler world" brings up another topic I have been anxiious to put out there. It is my conclusion that in today's world, all the equipment we use seems to be percieved as being much SIMPLER, at least on the surface, than equipment that we used years ago. But in reality, as we all know, the equipment, the learning curve, the scope of understanding necessary, is vastly more complicated today than before. The fact that every major recording device oit there has a very prominent RECORD button of some sort, usually RED and quite prominent, doesn't mean we all know what happens when that button is pushed. It took me quite some time, relatively speaking, to learn how to open the gate on the Nagra, thread the tape through the guides and over the head, close the gate and learn how the FUNCTION selector functions...  it is infinitely easier to find the REC button on a new recorder (as more than one producer has said: "even my kid can operate that") but is the new machine really simpler? I don' think so.

So, my new topic is really a call for our people here to answer, even in a general way, how the progression of all these technological advances has impacted their professional lives and how everyone is dealing with this.

No need to reply to this now, but if it strikes a nerve in anyone, I would love to hear any comments on this important relationship: man (and woman), the tools that we use.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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Are you burning your deliverables on the PB DVD burner, or an external one?  I didn't see any backup machine on your cart, do you roll anything else while rolling Metacorder?  Do you transport it in your own van or are you working off camera or sound/video trucks supplied by the production?

Philip Perkins

I am using the P.B's internal burner.  I do have a spare external burner (LG f/w & USB 2.0), but I have yet to take it out of the truck.  Upon completion of principal photography, I also supply production with a hard drive with the entire film's production sound on it.  On this drive, there is one folder for each of the sound rolls and one folder with all of the sound reports

There is no back up machine.  I used to run simultaneous DAT, mostly for Telecine's benefit.  However, many shows later, all using the same Telecine house, we have decided that the DATs are no longer necessary as we were not finding that we were ever using them.  For the purposes of backup, I am recording simultaneously onto two external drives.  I do have a DAT machine in the truck in case the entire computer goes down, or for those once in every several years over the shoulder shots.  However I plan to replace this DAT with a non-linear machine before my next production.  The current front runner is probably the 702T for over the shoulder work and another MAC for the cart back up.  Again, this would be for use in the event of a catastrophic system failure, not for simultaneous use.  If my main PB were to ever go down, I would then be able to go with the b/u PB while continuing to use the same external h.d.'s that all ready have all of the day's (and entire movie's) work on them.

As far as transporting my equipment goes, I have my own cube van complete with lift gate.  This is driven for me by the transport dept.  I really enjoy the convenience of showing up at work and my truck is already parked, powered, and levelled.  Interestingly enough, I have also noticed that my truck seems to consitently get better parking spots since it started travelling with the unit.

Best,

Darren

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I am using the P.B's internal burner.  I do have a spare external burner (LG f/w & USB 2.0), but I have yet to take it out of the truck.  Upon completion of principal photography, I also supply production with a hard drive with the entire film's production sound on it.  On this drive, there is one folder for each of the sound rolls and one folder with all of the sound reports

There is no back up machine.  I used to run simultaneous DAT, mostly for Telecine's benefit.  However, many shows later, all using the same Telecine house, we have decided that the DATs are no longer necessary as we were not finding that we were ever using them.  For the purposes of backup, I am recording simultaneously onto two external drives.  I do have a DAT machine in the truck in case the entire computer goes down, or for those once in every several years over the shoulder shots.  However I plan to replace this DAT with a non-linear machine before my next production.  The current front runner is probably the 702T for over the shoulder work and another MAC for the cart back up.  Again, this would be for use in the event of a catastrophic system failure, not for simultaneous use.  If my main PB were to ever go down, I would then be able to go with the b/u PB while continuing to use the same external h.d.'s that all ready have all of the day's (and entire movie's) work on them.

As far as transporting my equipment goes, I have my own cube van complete with lift gate.  This is driven for me by the transport dept.  I really enjoy the convenience of showing up at work and my truck is already parked, powered, and levelled.  Interestingly enough, I have also noticed that my truck seems to consitently get better parking spots since it started travelling with the unit.

Best,

Darren

There's  a new thread we need to have--parking on set.  You are right about getting a better position when you are in the Teamster loop, which I  unfortunatly almost never am.  This is one major advantage to being on the camera truck--they always get the best spot closest to the set.

thanks for the info

Philip Perkins

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I have started new topic here to address the whole area of recording directly to a computer: laptop, Mac Mini, PC (or whatever anybody else comes up with). I recognize that ALLthe digital recording devices we use are "computers" but this topic will be able to focus on those setups that typically use a personal computer running a mainstream OS and appropriate software.

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

Just a thought, but this is going to be such a large topic that I'm wondering if this shouldn't be a whole new Category or Sub-Category rather than a thread that will soon be buried under many others under the Equipment category

Darren

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There is one area where one-piece stand alone recorders have an advantage, and that is in clocking.  With the interfaces and the two most common location recording applications used around here, one has to figure out how to deal with clocking issues, especially in longer recordings, while a Deva etc takes care of all of that for you.  You cats driving digital boards, it sounds like you are making the board the master?  ANd the board drives the TC generator?

Philip Perkins

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There is one area where one-piece stand alone recorders have an advantage, and that is in clocking.  With the interfaces and the two most common location recording applications used around here, one has to figure out how to deal with clocking issues, especially in longer recordings, while a Deva etc takes care of all of that for you.  You cats driving digital boards, it sounds like you are making the board the master?  ANd the board drives the TC generator?

Philip Perkins

Actually, as soon as you are using more than 1 digital device, you are in to having to consider what will be clocking what;  which will be the Master and which will be the slave.  It's really not a big deal and this is no different using an interface than it is a stand alone recorder.  I suppose with regards to the much discussed sample acurate time code issue, one has to be a little more careful.  But again, this really is not a big deal as the Traveler can accompish this quite easily.

Best,

Darren

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The rule of thumb is to have your A/D be the word clock master. This can be a mixer or mic pre's or an interface but usually whatever is at the head of the chain. The components that follow then slave to the master w/c.

TC and word are unrelated to each other but both useful for syncing.

Think of word clock as a kind of gearing for the audio devices to talk to each other at the right time and pace when they are in the digital realm. TC is for locking the end recording to picture.

Word clock, be it from a mixer, mic pre or whatever has nothing to do with the clocking of the TC.

Video sync/gen lock  is something to think about in regards to TC and having the two locked in phase .This is what a lockit box does when jamming cameras or other video sources.

This is very simplified verison of how these things work but word clock is for the digital audio only and doesn't carry over into syncing concerns for TC or picture.

I would never use the TC generator from a piece of software ie. Digital Performer, and if I did I'd have to have sniffed a bunch of glue and be at least hard lined to whatever was using that TC. Even then I'd have to disconnect my phone to not hear about it from post.

Scott Harber

Actually, as soon as you are using more than 1 digital device, you are in to having to consider what will be clocking what;  which will be the Master and which will be the slave.  It's really not a big deal and this is no different using an interface than it is a stand alone recorder.  I suppose with regards to the much discussed sample acurate time code issue, one has to be a little more careful.  But again, this really is not a big deal as the Traveler can accompish this quite easily.

Best,

Darren

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The rule of thumb is to have your A/D be the word clock master. This can be a mixer or mic pre's or an interface but usually whatever is at the head of the chain. The components that follow then slave to the master w/c.

TC and word are unrelated to each other but both useful for syncing.

Think of word clock as a kind of gearing for the audio devices to talk to each other at the right time and pace when they are in the digital realm. TC is for locking the end recording to picture.

Word clock, be it from a mixer, mic pre or whatever has nothing to do with the clocking of the TC.

I also used to go by the "rule" that your A.D. should be your clock master.  However, I have since been "re-educated" by others, and by experience.  I am now of the opinion that your piece of equipment with the best clock, as in the one that is rated with the lowest jitter and the best p.p.m. spec should be your clock master.  Many recording studios have separate devices that do nothing more than just provide a good, stable, low jitter clock source.

As well, I have recently been educated about the term "sample acurate sync" with regards to timecode.  It appears that in some cases they are in fact related.  The thinking is that if the clock that runs your timecode and the clock that runs your digital system are not completely in sync that when doing a long take (such as recording a concert) there will eventually be some drift in the correlation of the two.  This was not an issue with linear timecode but is an issue where timecode extrapolated from a stamp made at the very beginning of the take.  One solution is to use a master clock that can sync to timcode.  The Traveler is capable of this and this is how I now sync my system.

Best,

Darren

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I also used to go by the "rule" that your A.D. should be your clock master.  However, I have since been "re-educated" by others, and by experience.  I am now of the opinion that your piece of equipment with the best clock, as in the one that is rated with the lowest jitter and the best p.p.m. spec should be your clock master.  Many recording studios have separate devices that do nothing more than just provide a good, stable, low jitter clock source.

As well, I have recently been educated about the term "sample acurate sync" with regards to timecode.  It appears that in some cases they are in fact related.  The thinking is that if the clock that runs your timecode and the clock that runs your digital system are not completely in sync that when doing a long take (such as recording a concert) there will eventually be some drift in the correlation of the two.  This was not an issue with linear timecode but is an issue where timecode extrapolated from a stamp made at the very beginning of the take.  One solution is to use a master clock that can sync to timcode.  The Traveler is capable of this and this is how I now sync my system.

Best,

Darren

So do you roll around w/ a Big Ben?

Does the traveler generate a decent TC?

I have yet to see word clock generators w/ TC in or outs on them.

Word clock and TC are different realms where as TC and Video sync/gen lock  are related when it comes to syncing to other media and drift issues.

Maybe I have a lot to learn but that is how I understand the boxes I plug in to work.

Scott

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So do you roll around w/ a Big Ben?

-No

Does the traveler generate a decent TC?

-No

I have yet to see word clock generators w/ TC in or outs on them.

-The Traveler and some other interfaces can sync their internal clock to incoming t/c and then generate word clock from that.

Best,

Darren

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So do you roll around w/ a Big Ben?

-Yes

Does the traveler generate a decent TC?

-No

I have yet to see word clock generators w/ TC in or outs on them.

-The Traveler and some other interfaces can sync their internal clock to incoming t/c and then generate word clock from that.

Best,

Darren

So is the word clock comming from the Big Ben or the TC?

The T/C isn't tied to the Big Ben so I really don't get how this works.

If you are clocking off the TC then why use the Big Ben on some things and not others.

Do you somehow loop the output of word on the traveler into the Big Ben and then regenerate word.

Scott

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Works like this:

The Denecke GR-1's t/c goes into an audio chan of the Traveler.  The Traveler detects the incoming code and gives you the option of syncing/locking it's internal clock to the code.  Now that the Traveler is locked to the incoming code, it becomes a much more accurate clock.  Word clock is then sent from Traveler to the 01V96 which is then slaved to it.

Best,

Darren

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Works like this:

The Denecke GR-1's t/c goes into an audio chan of the Traveler.  The Traveler detects the incoming code and gives you the option of syncing/locking it's internal clock to the code.  Now that the Traveler is locked to the incoming code, it becomes a much more accurate clock.  Word clock is then sent from Traveler to the 01V96 which is then slaved to it.

Best,

Darren

Darren,

What I don't understand is how word, which in my understanding is much more accurate clocking-wise than TC,  would want to take it's clock off of TC.

Locking TC to video was always a pure camera/picture issue as they need to be in sync whereas audio files never needed to line up the tc with anything else (there are no fields etc.).

My builds have always had TC tied to video sync and then word is treated as a seperate entity that clocks all digital audio together.

Never had calls about drift in some very long long takes ie. 3 hours, but that doesn't mean drift didn't happen.

I have a 828Mk2, which is a racked Traveler, and if I could get around the mLan clocking issues (the computer has to be the master) it seems it would work very well to have all things audio chase TC as a sync source.

Are there folks out there who use a lockit box outputting word to sync up audio? It seems perfect for this. I've never thought about this approach but it seems worth pursuing.

Scott Harber

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