Jump to content

How to Genlock RED EPIC ?


Recommended Posts

I'm trying to sync EPIC with my Ambient Lockit 203 but I couldn't figure out what format of Genlock signal I have to use ?

 

Using that Lemo 4pin to 3 BNC adaptor cable, the camera is receiving TC without any problem but do not see Genlock (GEN and SYNC sign is grayed out on screen). We are shooting on 5K 2:1 25p.

The format I've choosen is HD1080p 25 frame rate. The firmware seems the last beta version 5.x.x...

 

After an hour or few of internet search, I only figured out after the shoot that on the RED manual indicated that the Video Sync connector receives RS170A Tri-Level sync signal on pin 4, the GENLOCK BNC connector.

Does that mean I have to set to plain SD NTSC signal to genlock ? How you manage when you rolls 25 image per sec.?

 

Any suggestion, experiences story will be appreciated!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Whitney, Hi Senator,

 

Yes, I know that theory that we don't need genlocked the camera when we shoot with only one.

But as I see on this thread:

 

There's a serious problem on Epic that the timecode glitches between two to three frames, which is not pleasing. And actually we're shooting quite long take, as it is a feature length documentary.

 

Would like to know someone actually syncing Genlock with this camera, what format to choose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only one person using Genlock who has no issue with that camera. Others seems onl sending Timecode and having eternal problem, saying "hey this camera is crap".

That's why I'm asking above question.

I'm not asking IF I HAVE TO use Genlock, I'm just asking what is the format to choose on my Clockit 203 (as there's several choice).

 

The firmware is up to date as mentioned, the DoP is in contact with RED, even made a thread on their forum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Senator, if you remember, this is the second time that you tell me the same thing.

Not a sound problem. Camera department's fault.

An answer that never helped me.

 

Maybe so, but I'm not looking for who's making a fault/issue. And I don't work in a department war.

Cameraman and sound person working together, and I just want to my sound will be in exactly sync with the image.

And the Clockit box is mine. It is my choice of sync camera with Genlock, not his opinion.

 

So, who knows what format to use for Genlock Epic? Is it a simple SD NTSC format as mentioned in the manual?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" So, who knows what format to use for Genlock Epic? "

It depends...

but RED knows...

I understand your wanting to do the best job possible, but if you suggest something that does not work correctly, you will also get the credit for that! (this is where the expression 'no good deed goes unpunished' comes from.

once again, the best answer to your question must come from RED not from sound folks.

BTW: " Camera department's fault. "

sorry, not what I said, or meant... I believe it is the camera department's issue to deal with

BTW, Genlock is not a 'format' (like SMPTE/EBU TC), it is a steady signal that provides a frequency reference for camera sync...--thus it is linked to the frame rate; it's design purpose is to insure that all cameras in a multiple camera setup are all locked precisely together..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Actually the last gig was shot without Genlock, and the production and camera department (who is just one person) knows where hides the issue.

 

As there's some guys here who fortunately syncing Epic to Genlock, I think there's at least some knows what format to use with this camera. Not only RED.

Actually Ambient made a clip about their Clockit 204 with Epic rig, they certainly knows the answer. I sent a message to Ambient but unfortunately I get no answer, yet.

I hope Timo will read this thread.

 

And just to tell you that on the thread that my cameraman made on the RED User forum, there's literaly none has answered to his question.

Here, JWSound's Forum is better than that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

" on the RED User forum, there's literaly none has answered to his question. "

I suggest contacting RED (for technical support), not posting on a forum...

 

Ambient may know your answer, but the answer depends on your specific circumstances, such as your frame rate... If you are dealing with 25FPS, your genlock would typically be a 50Hz signal, but I get the feeling most of us here are still wondering why you would need to genlock a single camera..?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I often work 2-Epic shoots, latest firmware.  We tend to shoot very long takes (30-40 min) so we go genlock and ext tc via lockits.  On the Lockit side you output 1080 P sync@ whatever TC rate you are using, plus TC.  On the Red side you have to go through the menus re genlock and ext TC until you get "green" on TC, GEN and SYNC onscreen.

 

philp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Philip.

This is exactly what I wanted to know.

Ironically the same setting is what I send to the camera, but Epic doesn't turn Green GEN and SYNC ???

But now it is clear for me that this is rather a camera (or their firmware) problem.

 

 

To answer to Senator, or other who says there's no need of Genlock a one camera.

(but I get the feeling that Senator knows well why we need that))

 

Indeed it is true, that I did for several years. But when you send only a TC to the camera, your TC is never on the "edge" of the frame (the TC and the frame is not exactly synced). This is the same for Sony or other camera.

If the internal crystal is stable enough, there's rarely a problem of sync, as it stays half to one frame delay.

Though in Epic's case, there's significant unstability of internal clock, that I get the feeling it is better sync the shutter phase to external Genlock, so that the camera rolls exactly the same speed to my Clockit box.

This is what you can read from the other thread I cited above, and what I feel from my experience.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 I get the feeling most of us here are still wondering why you would need to genlock a single camera..?

 

Hello here the DoP speaking... ;-)

 

Timecode stamp is recorded at the first picture recorded on the camera (as does AVID for example) and then the following images are only an increment of +1 +1 +1 +1 +1 until the end of the clip. So the internal clock of the camera dictates the pace if there is no GENLOCK telling what speed the +1 +1 +1 +1 should go. So if you shoot small clips of about 1 minute you'll probably be ok but if you shoot longer clips like 40 minutes interviews you'll get a time slip or even worst a time stretch faster and slower in the same clip.

 

So therefore we want to have a Genlocked camera to the sound but it also can help on lessering the number or asynch frames because recording will allways start at the same readout frame and not inbetween a timecode change and have a bigger slip of 1 to 3 frames.

 

Now we are looking at the camera side if it's due to a faulty body.

 

This is the methodology we are doing to tackle a problem down not to get in unnecessary department wars. Or throw bad words on manufacturers.

 

Be sure, I'll keep informed about the results.

 

See you.

Patrick

 

Epic op guide:

5.1.23

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've run into similar sync issues with the Epics on long takes  Have not had a problem with getting external gen-lock into the camera though, at least at 23.98 FPS.

 

I do know that there were some issues early on with the Epic losing gen-lock due to low battery supply voltage. In addition, the early breakout cables that Red supplied had poor shielding, which caused further wonky behavior. I have also encountered various ground loop issues with the camera, especially relating to the HD-SDI ports (athough this shouldn't be any problem when using individual lockit boxes).

 

--S

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We went to lockits with the two Epics initially because the cameras will not stay in sync with each other over a long run, let alone in sync with an audio recorder.

 

That is correct. It's also a huge problem with 3D rigs -- the cameras have to be genlocked together to have their shutters in phase and timecode sync in phase. It's usually just a 1-frame error, but the thing that drives editors and assistant editors crazy is that the clap winds up sometimes being 1-frame out or exactly dead-on, without warning.

 

I've never done a 25fps production with the Epic, but I can verify that you should get green indicators with 23.98, assuming both the project and the framerate are set to the exact same speed. Find out what firmware they're using. I believe 4.0.18 is current and stable (August 2013):

 

https://www.red.com/downloads/4f56854e6261f95a5700069b

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

Here the tricky part in 25p

When focus confirm enhanced is selected the monitoring output of the hdsdi (if hdsdi is selected) is forced to 30p and dismatch the project rate of 25p. This puts the gen in red. Not very intuitive but this was the hickup.

Pat

From User Manual p. 40

https://www.red.com/downloads/5231faea2f74a961f4000005

GEN Gray: No genlock signal is currently detected, or the presented signal cannot cross-lock to project

(24.00 FPS vs. 23.98 FPS).

GEN Red: During process of sync, or genlock is lost while recording.

GEN Green: A genlock signal matching the current HD-SDI monitor rate has been locked to.

GEN Yellow: When timing is cross-locking to compatible but not matching monitor rate. For example, gen- lock = 24.00, and HD-SDI monitor rate = 25.00.

NOTE: 3D operation should not be done if GEN is yellow. This is a warning that genlock source settings and camera settings are not aligned. Phasing of the sync between cameras cannot be guaranteed when GEN is yellow.

SYNC

SYNC Gray: The sensor sync mode is not Genlock.

SYNC Red: The sensor sync mode is Genlock, but it is not locked to any genlock signal, or genlock or sen- sor sync is lost while recording.

SYNC Green: A genlock signal compatible with the HD-SDI monitor rate has been locked to and the sensor timing is also locked to it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • 1 year later...

When shooting with a single RED (and other cameras), I have had great success with, and much less aggravation by:

   TC Syncing my SD633 to the camera.  True, unless they have the RED pro module with TC there is no TC OUT of the RED.

But, here's the workaround:  Since I use a Convergence Design 7Q to monitor the Video AND Audio from any SDI camera.  This gives me video, and an accurate recording level of what is actually in the SDI stream.  In addition, the 7Q has LTC OUT.  It is locked to the camera my 633 is ExternalTC locked to the camera and Wala:  Instant, perfect TC from the camera.  It even works if they want to do Record/Run...  What is the TC rate you ask?  I ask also.  Sometimes they tell me, often they are right, but I am always right because I use the Sound Devices 633 TimeCode-Jam window to verify what they are actually sending me and that I am TC perfect.

Especially helpful when the RED operator really isn't one and doesn't know how to set up camera or change settings....  This removes potential,  uncomfortable TC issues between Camera and Sound.

Michael Stahr

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...