Andrej H Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ok, I'm sure this noob question will generate a few smug comments from the one "in the know", but none the less I will ask - is that kind of heavily processed (to my ears) dialogue sound as in the link below, that seems agressive in a controlled way, partly caused by the use of compression? Do you use compressors in dialogue mixing - or do you rely on automation...? I am assisting dialogue mix at the moment and my edit + preliminary dialogue mix is much more "polite", I don't get this midrangey "bite", but I don't use compressors... also - is subtle noise gating usual in dialogue mix? I wonder what combination of processes causes this sort of sound behaviour - would you mind suggesting some obvious processing chains that could get one to that sort of dialogue sound when needed... It doesn't sound good to me in a "hi-fi" way, but it sounds very "film-like" - lo-fi in a cinematic way if you understand what I mean... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMEq1mGpP5A P.S. Ok, I'll get some book on the subject, but some ideas from actual practitioners won't hurt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 " Do you use compressors in dialogue mixing - or do you rely on automation...? " yes, sometimes. " Ok, I'll get some book on the subject, " Jay Rose and John Purcel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 Location sound that is kind of mid-fi to start with can very easily end up sounding as you say if it has been over processed. What you've just noticed is that it is really important to compare processed dialog to the original as you go and make sure you haven't improved it into a ruin. Less is more, esp with dialog signal processing. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiasnyc Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 "is that kind of heavily processed (to my ears) dialogue sound as in the link below, that seems agressive in a controlled way, partly caused by the use of compression?" Possibly, it depends on what part of the sound you're talking about. I wouldn't necessarily blame the compression for it sounding "midrangey". If it's hot in the midrange because of compression then you just scoop it out with an EQ, no big deal. Also, I assume you mean that this is what the dialog sounded like in the mix, and aren't actually asking why this example sounds why it does (seeing that it's on YouTube so who knows what happened to it)."Do you use compressors in dialogue mixing - or do you rely on automation...? " Both. I personally edit first, restore, EQ then automate volume, and then send to a buses on which there is compression. This is on program material on which I do all the work."is subtle noise gating usual in dialogue mix? " Not sure if it's "usual", but surely it happens and it probably depends a lot on the mixer and the type of material and use. I personally almost never use it. Instead I just use restoration plugins when noise is out of control."I wonder what combination of processes causes this sort of sound behaviour - would you mind suggesting some obvious processing chains that could get one to that sort of dialogue sound when needed... It doesn't sound good to me in a "hi-fi" way, but it sounds very "film-like" - lo-fi in a cinematic way if you understand what I mean... " To me it doesn't sound "cinematic" in any way. It may sound like a film that's been demolished to fit some rubbish delivery format (airplane?), but in my opinion the top-dog in terms of high quality is big-budget cinema, or at least it should be. I think audiences are way more forgiving for TV etc. But that didn't answer your question I'm afraid. And I don't really know what answer to give you except to just try a lot yourself. In that YouTube clip I'm guessing there's a heavy amount of compression, so that's something to get into. EQ is obvious. Noise gate I'm not sure. If I understand correctly they whisper a lot on that show and that tends to bring up the background sound of course, so what may seem like "gating" one way or another could simply be the effects of compression. Also try to assist more engineers and see how they have different workflows. I've seen a few mixers and there's a huge difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 ... and remember: it takes years of experience to get years of experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 Ah, breakimg bad. Couldn't watch the clip for some reason. I am a fan of the show, but don't like the sound of the dialog on that show at all. It's being heavily over processed using a Cedar, I'm sure. It's not cinematic sounding at all, in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 The "midrangey" effect you're hearing is largely due to a good bit of high pass filtering and most of the rest of what you're referencing is heavy compression. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 (edited) remember many of those older cinematic movies had optical sound tracks with limited high frequency capability... what I'm referring to will be noted: " " The 70s/80s midrangey always sounded kinda cool/interesting to me, even if it doesn't to you. Must be the "vintage" sound Edited November 15, 2013 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 14, 2013 Report Share Posted November 14, 2013 remember many of those older cinematic movies had optical sound tracks with limited high frequency capability... Somehow I don't think of Breaking Bad as one of those "older cinematic movies." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) Ah, breakimg bad. Couldn't watch the clip for some reason. I am a fan of the show, but don't like the sound of the dialog on that show at all. It's being heavily over processed using a Cedar, I'm sure. It's not cinematic sounding at all, in my book. Not this particular clip so much but Breaking Bad does sound heavily "noise-reductioned" to me too. Seems like their locations are so challenging...you can also hear tons of crazy crossfading going back there in big speakers. Just stuff I noticed. You also mentioned, Henchman, that movies of the 70s and 80s are very midrangey in some post some long time ago. Stuck with me with for some reason. But it sounds different than Breaking Bad does.... Hmm what's up with that? The 70s/80s midrangey always sounded kinda cool/interesting to me, even if it doesn't to you. Must be the "vintage" sound. Edited November 15, 2013 by srab1138 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 Somehow I don't think of Breaking Bad as one of those "older cinematic movies." I just watched The excorcist again in the Theatre, and the dialog sounded aweful. And I wouldn't see why the locations are any more challenging than other shows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb1138 Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I just watched The excorcist again in the Theatre, and the dialog sounded aweful. And I wouldn't see why the locations are any more challenging than other shows. OK. The Exorcist did always sound weird to me. Kinda has a weird, dull sound to it. My only theory is that it has something to do with the show's reputation of being "quiet". Most other shows fade nicely through their backgrounds. The show Dexter really nicely fades between lines, but there's a ton of background noise that it uses to mask/fade-between. In order to get the quieter feel, I guess the Breaking Bad guys use more processing? Edited November 15, 2013 by srab1138 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 I haven't seen Breaking Bad (ya, I'm the one), so I can't comment much on its audio (who knows where that YouTube clip's hands have been). But it's recorded with fairly standard (good) stuff: http://www.sounddevices.com/news-events/news/hooked-on-breaking-bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 Ah, breakimg bad. Couldn't watch the clip for some reason. I am a fan of the show, but don't like the sound of the dialog on that show at all. It's being heavily over processed using a Cedar, I'm sure. It's not cinematic sounding at all, in my book. I find the show sounds better on Blu-ray than it does over the air. I suspect there's some extra processing going on in AMC's broadcast chain that goes to satellite and cable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrej H Posted November 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 Thanks for some ideas... Yes, what I meant by "cinematic" is probably that because of all that processing and noise reduction and compression it reminds me of that "classic" old movie sound - I think you nailed it when you mentioned old movies - despite this being a contemporary show, the tone in that clip and similar scenes reminds me of the old(er) movies - sometimes even distorted, but with a nice "realism" flair and a "midrangey" tone, that is not too harsh at the same time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 I find the show sounds better on Blu-ray than it does over the air. I suspect there's some extra processing going on in AMC's broadcast chain that goes to satellite and cable. I've watched it streaming, and the versions they stream are what leaves the dubstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiasnyc Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 I've watched it streaming, and the versions they stream are what leaves the dubstage. Silly question perhaps, but how do you know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 HUGE FAN of Breaking Bad; writing, acting, cinematography, etc. Dialogue did sound over-processed to me, but not as to be distracting from the overall experience. The clip in the OP is definitely one of my favorite moments in the show, and I recall it not sounding as bad as it did in this clip.. I'm sure YouTube is killing some of the audio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 Silly question perhaps, but how do you know? That's what we do with sons of anarchy as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiasnyc Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 That's what we do with sons of anarchy as well. No I get that your show sounds on air the way it sounds on the stage, but if it's on different networks how do you know they didn't do something different to the broadcast version compared to what ended up on the bluray, be it a remix (doubt it) or broadcast processing...? That's sort of what I was getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bondelev Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 I've watched it streaming, and the versions they stream are what leaves the dubstage. Except of course that it is highly data-compressed during the streaming process. Tons of aliasing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 Thanks for some ideas... Yes, what I meant by "cinematic" is probably that because of all that processing and noise reduction and compression it reminds me of that "classic" old movie sound - I think you nailed it when you mentioned old movies - despite this being a contemporary show, the tone in that clip and similar scenes reminds me of the old(er) movies - sometimes even distorted, but with a nice "realism" flair and a "midrangey" tone, that is not too harsh at the same time... Yeah, I'm with you on this. I'm watching Breaking Bad on Netflix and it's obviously heaviky processed but I dig that sound a lot. I think it has a certain "grit" that is pleasant to my ears. When I do dialouge myself I always try to get it as clean as possible but whenever something is just too much to handle that's often the lines I like the most. Weird maybe but I prefer the over-processed (and sometimes with an audible fade of bg noise) dialouge sound. It would be really interesting to hear what you guys would do to try and make clean audio recordings sound like old movie dialouge recorded on Nagra and mixed and edited on tape. I'm doing a short shot on 16mm that the director wants to sound like a movie recorded in the 80's with the subtle distortion and what not. Unfortunately they couldn't use a Nagra so I have very crisp clean recordings. Been using a lot of Waves Kramer Tape but I'd like some more suggestions. Maybe SoundToys Decapitator? Been thinking of purchasing that for some while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 Except of course that it is highly data-compressed during the streaming process. Tons of aliasing. I check my shows, and they don't exhibit any aliasing whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henchman Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 No I get that your show sounds on air the way it sounds on the stage, but if it's on different networks how do you know they didn't do something different to the broadcast version compared to what ended up on the bluray, be it a remix (doubt it) or broadcast processing...? That's sort of what I was getting at. What. I'm saying is that the version that is played on streaming channels ( not network broadcast) are unaltered from the dubstage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 16, 2013 Report Share Posted November 16, 2013 " your show sounds on air the way it sounds on the stage, " that can be difficult to say, since we are not always watching shows "off the air" (television broadcast stations) but we are watching them off the birds, or wires... even the traditional broadcast television station chain involves several many steps along the delivery workflow, all of them possible sources of processing and various opportunities for the sound to be affected by codec's, etc. It has always been that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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