al mcguire Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Out here in the sticks we have a rule , if it has audio inputs you had better put some audio in there. Editors are definitely not into syncing video and audio, though they do believe in Plural Eyes. And yes there are editors that want it to sound as good as it can. I am a service, I want to keep my client happy. There is no better complement then being invited back on the next job. Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 90% of the time I'm sent spec's from production that came to them from post for sound and feeding the camera a mix. I give them what they want. I could care less if they use the rough mix or my elements. It's their choice. Seems silly not to use the better recording but... CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonG Posted November 28, 2013 Report Share Posted November 28, 2013 Ask for the post production coordinators info and contact them. This is the only way Ive ever been able to get reliable answers/results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 'best possible media' to a radio receiver strapped to an Alexa on a technocrane " and that may just be better than the sound recorded double system on a Zoom... The Alexa has capable sound and TC, and sending it a top quality feed, if they want it, is my gig! RPS had me scared: " I refuse to send a "scratch" track. " but he noted : " 99% of the time, it's nothing at all. " so, there you are: "refuse to send a "scratch" track " it will never get "wrongly used"; or send one, but file a "wrongful use" suit in a superior court. and if you cannot convince them to do only double system sound, then send a the best possible tracks, in the best possible workflow (which you charge appropriately for) send camera either good sound or no sound. " in a couple of cases, the scratch track did wind up getting used anyway, simply because the editor or assistant editor was too lazy to sync them up. " while I'm sure that in some cases "too lazy" happens (wrong choice of post ?) but often it is not specified, or otherwise required, or requested, and thus also not being properly paid for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Here is my advice as I work on both sides of the fence, well 95% is audio post. This for mid to low budged projects. First contingincy plan. Make sure you send a high quality feed to the camera, Probably not a g3 or cheap Sony wireless, try using even an old lectro 190, Make friends with the camera op, research the camera's audio settings. If its DSLR, set the camera's audio to level 1 (0 is no audio coming through) this will give the best signal to noise ratio. For run and gun work, it should work OK. Next communication.. Tell the producer to make sure correct tracks from your recorder are used. get the details of the post people , video editor, audio post. The audio post guy will be the most annoyed if the DX is not up to scratch. Send them an email with instructions on how to deal with your recorded tracks, if it was TC or a dumb slate, wether they will need to use plural eyes. Send the files to them via we transfer or similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I'll clarify... I will do what I am asked. But I have been successful in avoiding sending sound to camera in most instances, even if initially asked to do so. A few simple questions usually makes production realize it's something they don't need, especially if it costs more. I do, however, work almost exclusively in narrative TV and features, where double system is the norm. My "refusal" is only in sending a "scratch" track. If I send sound, it'll be a proper level quality feed, via Lectro receiver or cable. If it's worth sending, it's worth sending right. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I'm thinking I'm just gonna start putting a bandpass filter on the cam send set from 800Hz to about 2.5k. Great for quick cuts, useless for final product. You would think... Some video editors and producers can't tell the difference and work in some pretty terrible edit suites and will still use the guide tracks. This will be a great way to really piss of the audio post guy, and not do a lot for your reputation in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I got a call on Wednesday from a Post House in Chicago asking if I had the ISO's from the commercial they were getting ready to mix. I said I had them but so should they on the drives that picture came on. After some back and forth I found out they only had the mix track on the DV Tapes that Co3 sent them. Ring went the bell. Co3 is a telecine post house here in LA that did a lot of the work when film was still the king. The job in question was a film shoot. Co3 didn't send the ISO's along to Post. Mystery solved. They had Co3 send them via a file sharing app on the net. This was obviously a communication, or lack there of, problem. This is sadly the world of today in commercials where no one talks to all in the chain. Personally I'm surprised it works as well as it does. The only way they got to the root of their problem was an old school hand written sound report that came with the tapes that had my phone number on it. Crazy. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I don't agree that one solution fits all, even if that solution is only sending the best quality feed to camera. This is very much a YMMV world, and definitely an "it depends" universe. There are times I've done all the following and combinations thereof: No Track Scratch Track via Comtek Scratch Track via G2 Quality Track via Lectrosonics Quality Track via Zaxcom Quality Track via direct wired Double System Friends Psychic Network Etc. ...all depending upon the circumstances involved and my understanding of the post workflow. Typically, the producer has signed off on whichever avenue I've chosen. But, unless you're always doing the same gig, the same way, with the same people, in my experience, there is no "one size fits every situation," either in this discussion -- or most others for that matter. And there is no quick and easy substitute for understanding the specific job, its particular needs, and all the parties involved and their needs. I've done many gigs where I have used a wired feed to camera to maintain the best quality possible and I've done many jobs where a scratch track was the preferred solution for all involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm sure on film or high end drama work it's fine to use a Scratch track. You are working with people who are very knowledgeable and have a refined work flow . The rest of the industry however doesn't work like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tourtelot Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Don't feed those stupid cameras! D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm sure on film or high end drama work it's fine to use a Scratch track. You are working with people who are very knowledgeable and have a refined work flow . The rest of the industry however doesn't work like this. You're painting with an awfully broad brush there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Some video editors and producers can't tell the difference and work in some pretty terrible edit suites and will still use the guide tracks. This will be a great way to really piss of the audio post guy, and not do a lot for your reputation in my opinion. There was a bit of tongue in cheek in that post. Doesn't always translate in the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 You're painting with an awfully broad brush there. sorry probably I am, but has been my experience in the post world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 There was a bit of tongue in cheek in that post. Doesn't always translate in the text. haha , as i said earlier coming from the audio post world you would be surprised what gets through to my world.. I used to complain about extremely poor location sound very often..and used to beat down pretty heavy on the poor location sound mixer. now I know that if it comes to me like shite it t its because a low quality mixed down scratch has been used and the editor hasn't bothered to sync the location guys tracks. having dealt with 100's of editors for 20 years most really don't get audio or have an ear for it.. just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 I'm sure on film or high end drama work it's fine to use a Scratch track. You are working with people who are very knowledgeable and have a refined work flow . The rest of the industry however doesn't work like this. Yeah you'd think so but... I got a call on Wednesday from a Post House in Chicago asking if I had the ISO's from the commercial they were getting ready to mix. I said I had them but so should they on the drives that picture came on. After some back and forth I found out they only had the mix track on the DV Tapes that Co3 sent them. Ring went the bell. Co3 is a telecine post house here in LA that did a lot of the work when film was still the king. The job in question was a film shoot. Co3 didn't send the ISO's along to Post. Mystery solved. They had Co3 send them via a file sharing app on the net. This was obviously a communication, or lack there of, problem. This is sadly the world of today in commercials where no one talks to all in the chain. Personally I'm surprised it works as well as it does. The only way they got to the root of their problem was an old school hand written sound report that came with the tapes that had my phone number on it. Crazy. CrewC I worked on a long running job recently that required us to feed timecode to an audio track of video recorders that had no timecode input so they could still be synced to our separate sound recordings. All was of course duly noted and various emails sent to as many relevant people I could find as well as being discussed with the "post supervisor" during the rig. I have since heard tell of the exec producer sitting in the edit being told "that horrible beepy noise" was radio mic interference and also they are having lots of trouble trying to sync the sound! This and countless other experiences has lead me to first assume the level of technical proficiency of picture editors and the early stages of post in general is about as good as my mother's until they prove otherwise to me. It's safer that way unfortunately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 sorry probably I am, but has been my experience in the post world.. I certainly respect that. I, on the other hand, have encountered numerous situations which were best served with all the variations listed earlier. I used to be in the "send the best quality possible to camera no matter what" camp -- then the real world happened. I now embrace the variations -- even if sometimes with a measure of trepidation and occasional disagreement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markfarrowaudiopost Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 . I certainly respect that. I, on the other hand, have encountered numerous situations which were best served with all the variations listed earlier. I used to be in the "send the best quality possible to camera no matter what" camp -- then the real world happened. I now embrace the variations -- even if sometimes with a measure of trepidation and occasional disagreement. If you are working with an experienced team using Tc and slates, and a great post production work flow, I wouldn't bother sending a guide either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 " would have such crappy sound " and of course it might not be crappy sound... Which is why I don't provide anything better than a mono Comtek feed when sending wireless audio to camera. Why contribute to the problem? To answer the OP's question, though, I've started getting in touch with Post right after the gig and make sure I talk to the AE or the editor and let them know that they shoould have the master files. When they can't give them the contact info, I talk to the DIT and the PM and impress upon them what I'm delivering, so there's at least somewhat of a record of my work. Also, sound reports that state what was done are helpful to paint you under a favorable light, hence minimizing the chance of being blamed for bad sound. HTH, BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 " Why contribute to the problem? " because I was asked by the people paying me to provide it; it is not my problem if I have given them the best possible tracks as they requested. It is up to them, not me to run their postproduction workflow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 " Why contribute to the problem? " because I was asked by the people paying me to provide it; it is not my problem if I have given them the best possible tracks as they requested. It is up to them, not me to run their postproduction workflow. +1 I am hired to fit in to the productions workflow, not dictate it. Best i can do is make my recommendations, and provide the best audio i can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted November 30, 2013 Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 OMG... You mean I have listened to audio that was wrongfully recorded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I don't believe a producer –or whoever might have hired me– would use the words "scratch track" expecting a final mix or broadcast-quality sound. Thus, if I'm asked to provide a "scratch track" then that's what I provide. However, if I'm asked to provide a proper mix to the camera, that would lead to a discussion to make sure I know what exactly they need, and a plan to achieve it. In my experience –so far– the only times that's happened has been in interview settings, in which I've fed cable to camera. Otherwise, it's been understood by all involved that the scratch track was just for reference - and it has been noted as such in sound reports. OTOH, I did a four-day shoot recently (with the RED Epic, The Best Camera) in which the DIT never once synched my files with the camera files, even though he was actually busy maybe 20% of the time. I thought it would be a very efficient use of his time –not to mention a great way to ensure everything works as it should– if he took the five minutes it takes to synch the files every day. So, many moving parts and, apparently, not all members of the crew at the same level of proficiency/excellence/expectations… BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Just because the person hiring you (and paying for the gear) calls it a "scratch track" does not mean that someone else down the road isn't expecting a usable track. In narrative, the UPM or Line Producer works with a completely different budget than the Post Supervisor. The UPM is happy to pay less (or nothing) for a scratch track, when what is needed by post is something better. It's also why cheaping out on production sound at the expense of post is so common. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I did a feature length project earlier this year and got a call from the dialogue editor telling me they'd cut the whole thing using the scratch track. I only sent the boom op feed, so most of the time only the boom was going to camera, so they had to sync it all up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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