RPSharman Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I did a feature length project earlier this year and got a call from the dialogue editor telling me they'd cut the whole thing using the scratch track. I only sent the boom op feed, so most of the time only the boom was going to camera, so they had to sync it all up This enforces my point. Syncing production sound ought to be the first step in the editorial process. Unless we make the effort to help them understand, without blindly "doing what we are told", we're not doing our jobs. While we will usually be right, the UPM or producer will unlikely be there in the edit room with the director saying, "Our mixer told us this would happen. It's totally my fault. Sorry." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blas Kisic Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 We don't disagree, Robert. I'm all for trying to have open communication and following up as much as possible with post. BK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 RPS makes a good point about Production & Post Prod budgets being 2 different things. In Film and TV you'd hope everyone is on the same page despite who's budget it comes out of. In commercials the directors don't even cut their spots, the Agency does and often in NYC or Chicago and all points in between. Communication is dodgy at best between Prod & Post Prod. Personally I got tired of the no feed to camera fight and I mostly now send a quality mix to the Alexa (99% of the time) and collect the rent on the camera(s) hop(s). Never had production complain about the extra cost but that may just be my corner of commercials. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I work on a lot of jobs where sending a high quality 2-channel feed to the camera isn't possible for one or more of many reasons (including non-cooperation by the cam dept). The output of a small (read mid-fi) RX with a mono feed is all I'm likely to get onboard. I put a lot of effort into the "secretarial" aspects of production sound, esp re metadata notes, file names and how all that info gets presented in WA -derived sound report that will accompany my files to post. If they ignore this info for whatever reason then that's on them. They may also be using takes that the DP didn't like the lighting and framing on, that the talent didn't like their performance on, that the hair/MU/wardrobe/art aspects were compromised on too. You do your best, provide the "treasure map" to the best of your abilities and send it all downstream. Communication with post re your methodology is favorite, but as Crew points out on many types of small jobs that can be very hard to do. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 " I mostly now send a quality mix to the Alexa (99% of the time) and collect the rent on the camera(s) hop(s). Never had production complain about the extra cost " amen, even if they do complain a little bit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted June 23, 2014 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I have begun putting a thin strip of camera tape on the digislate sticks with the words 'Camera Audio Guide Only' written on, in bold capital lettering. No complaints yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominiquegreffard Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 If my recorder could send a little robot voice saying "reference audio guide only, please sync sound before editing" over scratch track every minute or so i'd probably do it. But seriously i like the idea to write a bold note on the digi slate. I'm sure lot's of projects i worked on ended up using my zaxnet scratch.. Hey, it sucks but it's their project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 If my recorder could send a little robot voice saying "reference audio guide only, please sync sound before editing" over scratch track every minute or so i'd probably do it. I am sure there'd be at least one post client saying "We don't want to waste time with a dialog edit. Voices on the ref pix are perfect the way we gave them to you. Just filter out that annoying robot." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 I am sure there'd be at least one post client saying "We don't want to waste time with a dialog edit. Voices on the ref pix are perfect the way we gave them to you. Just filter out that annoying robot." It's also a backup in case something else goes terribly wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 It's also a backup in case something else goes terribly wrong. has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Corral Posted June 23, 2014 Report Share Posted June 23, 2014 Usually for Narrative or Doc shoots, I'll throw a reference shotgun mic on the camera. With the timecode slate, they know they have to sync things in post. Or, I tether myself to the camera Boom on L and Lavs on R. Wireless Hops all depend on the production manager and if they have the budget for it. For reality gigs, producers always want wireless hops w/ all wires. If they see a boom pole or shotgun mic, the producers all hiss like vampires do when they see a crucifix. Most DPs are okay with me running no audio to the camera, only timecode. Or if DPs/ACs tell me to stay away from the camera entirely I make sure the timecode slate covers it. I'm always sure to bring up all issues before we start to the producer, DP, and Director when it comes to how the production will be flowing. I try to troubleshoot any and all problems before they come up, that we I can reference the email or say "we had this conversation before we started". Otherwise, there is much else we can do. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted June 25, 2014 Report Share Posted June 25, 2014 Working with Alexas I cable line level to both tracks With Scarlet and Epic I try to cable or radio feed With Black Magic and 5D I get them to turn the camera mike I provide all my files to the data wrangler and send my sound logs to the PM The rest is history and out of my hands! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjafreddan Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 I had this regular run and gun ENG-gig a few years ago. Basically sending a mono mix from a SD442 mixer to the camera via a snake cable - boom and one-two lavs mixed to mono. Always pushing the limiter because I knew NOTHING would happen to the audio in "post". One weekend we got the wrong camera from the rental company which we found out on location. Made a easy gig into a very hectic gig to say the least. A couple of days later I got a call from the TV company, they'd been editing all day but just couldn't get the audio to "sound okay". After some detective work on the telephone it turned out that the sound from the off-cam reporter sounded louder than the people in the picture. Well, it turned out they had rented an offline tape machine to be able to transfer the material into the computer and in the process mixed the camera mic (on auto-level) and my mono mix into two mono channels with the same sound. Then they had been editing the material all day, really trying to ignore the pumping ambience of the camera mic and when they finished the three minute cut, they just couldn't accept the fact that the ambience was louder than the people on camera. * sigh* I'm glad they took the time to call me, because otherwise it would have been my last gig for them, I'm sure. My mistake to put the camera mic on channel one, but it was a hasty gig due to the circumstances and I overlooked it. Anyway, right now I'm planning to go for wireless camera hop because I've just bought a SD664. To begin with it will probably be one G3 and one SK50 transmitter, but I'm looking into better sounding alternatives. Because I'm only doing documentaries and want the camera sound to be a good sounding backup - boom on channel one and a mix of lavs on channel two. The Zaxcom system looks really interesting. so does Lectro and the digital Sony systems. Ah, well, I'll stick with the G3/SK50 combo for now and compare it to the recorded sound files in the SD664. Cheers Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Ah, well, I'll stick with the G3/SK50 combo for now and compare it to the recorded sound files in the SD664. Cheers Fred How do you deal with the incompatible companders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjafreddan Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 How do you deal with the incompatible companders? Thanks for asking. Not being clear about the setup, I'm going to use a G3 system on one channel and a SK50/EK3042 system on the other channel. Cheers Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 Thanks for asking. Not being clear about the setup, I'm going to use a G3 system on one channel and a SK50/EK3042 system on the other channel. Cheers Fred ah, OK. And you know camera operators who are happy with such a bulky setup? I'm just curious... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjafreddan Posted July 2, 2014 Report Share Posted July 2, 2014 ah, OK. And you know camera operators who are happy with such a bulky setup? I'm just curious... Yes, we're good friends. He and I develop new documentaries together. We're used to being hooked up via a snake cable for the last two and a half years. Going wireless will be a bliss (even with the extra weight on the camera). He's over fifty but still a surfer dude, he can take the extra weight! :-D I've worked with a lot of different camera men (and women) and I think they will take the extra weight of two receivers ANY DAY, if the alternative is being hooked up with a (talkative) sound dude via cable. In my opinion, they are more reluctant being told to wear headphones, don't you think? ;-) In the long run I want to use a Zaxcom, Lectro, Wisycom or Sony stereo receiver, just for convenience and as a backup. But until then I will try this setup...or go back to cable. Just bought a Timecode Buddy system - wifi master and mini trx - and it's going to be interesting trying it out as Rec Run (using only one Sony F55 camera and a SD664 mixer). If it works I will be very happy and if it don't I will use it as RF synced 24h "free run". Cheers Fred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
traut Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 I think an automated -20dB 1K beep every 5 secs would do the trick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 I think an automated -20dB 1K beep every 5 secs would do the trick "There's something wrong with your production tracks. When I try to mix them in the editor, I keep getting those beeps that say they need to be rendered. Come over here and fix them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 I think an automated -20dB 1K beep every 5 secs would do the trick here we go again.... same old same old... nothing has changed, and I still believe that we are paid to deliver the best possible sound to the client; if the client accepts our feed and is in charge of the recorder (and we are not, as is the case with recording to camcorders) it remains our job to provide the best possible feed, although we are clearly not responsible for the quality of the recording of that feed. as an example, personally, I have no issue with doing single system to Arri's camcorders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmellman Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 I always try to get a clear answer as to whether they want a scratch track to be used simply for dailies/sync purposes or if they want a broadcast-ready mix to camera I'm a younger guy generally doing smaller jobs so I don't really encounter the latter too often but with the former, I usually send my mix a little hot via my G3s so that it doesn't end up in the final product. Haven't had any issues with clients or post being upset about this & haven't had the scratch track used in the final edit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxmellman Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 Also somewhat related: recently did a film where the client said no scratch or mix to the camera & somehow the editors ended up using the sound from the on-board camera mics in the edit. When the sound designer (a friend of mine) got the film, he sent me a few angry texts before we realized that the editors forgot to give him my sound files. Once he got my files from the editors, I got plenty of happy texts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 5, 2014 Report Share Posted July 5, 2014 max: " . Haven't had any issues with clients or post being upset about this " at least none that you have heard of... whatever works for you... but that just doesn't necessarily work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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