chris_bollard Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 These smaller recording mixers are great but will they be more likely to be "given away" as part of "standard" sound kit ? When the 744 came out there was a four track daily extra rate; and the same with the 788. If the Maxx and 663 aren't charged for then the will be pressure to cut/drop what we charge for the 788/664/744/Nomad.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 Once you hit record - you should bill it as a recorder. Though as we all know many people won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 chris bollard: " will they be more likely to be "given away" as part of "standard" sound kit ? " probably not, but they will be part of someone's $100/day (flat, all-in) rate for features... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Ostroff Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 Machines don't kill rates, people making poor business decisions do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 when the automobile came out, and then kept improving, it eventually eroded the livery stable business, and had a pretty major impact on blacksmiths... we do have a name for this... progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Production Houston Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 sell yourself, not the gear....and if that doesn't work buy a CMIT5U and distract everybody with a flashy blue microphone. on another note regarding the new gear like the 633, I had a job last week that requested 2 788T kits with 5 wireless and a boom each....i supplied a 788T kit and a 633 kit...and billed for 2 788T kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 Machines don't kill rates, people making poor business decisions do. Indeed. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codyman Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 Reminds me of the producer that called me asking me to mix + provide 4 lock it boxes and a recorder... For $200. Oh, and drive 100 miles with no reimbursement to get to set. Nope! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdutaillis Posted December 11, 2013 Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 I'm often using my 702 or 788 purely as a mixer on shoots. Of course I record everything myself as a back-up but they dont know that. Should something go wrong (which is thankfully yet to happen!) I've got myself covered. If they want the files or iso tracks I can pass/sell them on. As is being said above, it'll only become an issue if we make it one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerard-NYNY Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 when the automobile came out, and then kept improving, it eventually eroded the livery stable business, and had a pretty major impact on blacksmiths... we do have a name for this... progress it's called 'creative destruction.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pampasound Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 it's called 'creative destruction.' I can somehow agree to this...to a certain extend. And i think i know what you are referring to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I don't think most producers even care what recorder is being used as long as all the actors are covered and the results sound good. I don't doubt there are people for whom a small 2- or 3-track recorder might work just as well as a 10-track recorder if you're only using a couple of channels. The producers I deal with worry more about the incidentals, like Comteks, camera hops, and stuff like that. They just assume I'm using a recorder that will work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I don't think most producers even care what recorder is being used It's when they pay for a standard kit and end up with a card full of ISOs at the end of the gig that it's going to be a problem. The next time they see a double system bid they'll wonder why they should pay it. As Dan said, the onus will be on the mixers buying this gear to charge accordingly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VASI Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Machines don't kill rates, people making poor business decisions do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 It's when they pay for a standard kit and end up with a card full of ISOs at the end of the gig that it's going to be a problem. I can't imagine anybody with experience doing that and not also giving them a reasonable mix track, unless it was a specific instruction from post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngooch Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Pluraleyes contributed to gear rental erosion. As soon as stable TC was taken out of the requirement, the non-tc recorders were suddenly seen in the same arena as those with TC. But as we all know- it is the sound quality and more importantly the stability of these higher end recorders that is the most important thing. They cost more for a reason.... However, i love pluraleyes. It has taken the pain out of DSLR shoots. It just cleared the way for producers to care even less about how their projects are recorded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Steigerwald Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I can't imagine anybody with experience doing that Neither can I, but they're also not usually the problem when it comes to this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 (edited) People managed to charge appropriate rentals for a FR-2/702T/etc, so it's not the gear's fault. Maybe it was a bit more obvious with those machines that you were hooking up a recorder to your existing mixer+wireless rig, where as the Maxx/633/Nomad/664 is a mixer+recorder in one. You can't blame the gear for poor business practices. I did a job recently where they didn't want to pay for my Nomad, so I dusted off my 442 for the first time in over 2 years. I had to break down the Nomad bag and wire up a 442. Obviously not a big deal, but it would have been easier to grab the Nomad kit and go. I'll admit that I kind of did it on principle. In the end they would have wanted my ISOs, but alas they specified (and only paid for) "basic kit with just a mixer". Edited December 12, 2013 by johnpaul215 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azw Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 What was you price difference, Johnpaul, between the nomad and the 442? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael McQueen Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 i think its a combination of attitude and not knowing to charge for such things. i've had plenty of conversations with out of towners coming in and wanting to record for the price of mixing package. and with the cost of the pro recorders getting cheaper its allowing younger guns to get into the game, but they don't have the experience or the knowledge to charge properly for that labor and extra gear. there's been a few jobs like johnpaul, where they wanted to record but didn't want to pay for it. so out came the 302 bag. they asked a few times on the shoot if i could just record a few things and my reply was, "the rate we agreed upon was just for mixing, so if you want to roll on this audio, the camera is going to have to record it". DP was not amused. and there have been times when producers have said things like, "don't you have a recorder built into your mixer?" so some are aware of what we are capable of but knowingly want to try and pry it out of us for free. so just be warned. but now i've got a maxx bag and a nomad bag. and i never mention that my mixer can record if i'm hired for a mixing job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 Every mixer should have a number of kits suitable for different jobs. If you don't you may sometimes be forced to upgrade the gear, for your own convenience, not the productions. Hold the line and send out gear that they are paying for. I haven't been deterred and will bag up an MM1 and a G2 set with no backup recording for those really ultra-low budget gigs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 McQ: " they don't have the experience or the knowledge to charge properly " or the motivation (overhead) to do so... that Zoom does a lot for cheap. TV: " you may sometimes be forced to upgrade the gear, for your own convenience, not the productions.... Hold the line and send out gear that they are paying for. " I frequently have, at my convenience, a more capable package than I am hired (or paid) for, but when they want the ala carte extra capability, I add the extra ala carte charge$. TV: "for those really ultra-low budget gigs. " I don't do those; there are plenty of fools others available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Visser Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 I very much view my personal business practice much like a car rental model. I have a compact, full-size, and luxury automobile for rent. If for some reason my compact car is already booked, I'll try to upgrade them to the full-size. Note that when you walk into Hertz or Enterprise, and they are out of economy cars (because you always book the reservation very last minute the night before), what do they say? A) "Hi sir, were out of economy cars but we'd like to offer you a free upgrade to a full-size?" or B ) "Hello sir, would you like to upgrade to a full-size for only $10 per day more?" Once the car is out of the gate, though, fuck-all how you use it, as a consumer "it's yours" and you can do what you will (within the limits of the law or your willingness to break it). Want to carry a dozen clowns to a party? Game on. I feel that my negotiations end once I step foot on the job. It so happens that 99% of the time, I'm also hired as the "driver" for their "rental car" but it is (to me) a seemingly unprofessional tact to withhold capabilities of myself or my gear for an ala carte pricing model. I made the negotiation, whether I'm happy with it or not, the deal was done and now it's time to turn the switch from accountant off and soldier on. To be clear, I'm very much urging people to be more careful in the negotiation step of the process and not "just to suck it up" and record for free. I find it interesting that so many people are having this problem, indicative of the production sound mixing market that overwhelmingly has multi-track recording mixers instead of "old fashioned" mixers in inventory. Now that I think of it, a typical car costs from $10K (probably their fleet wholesale figure) for sub-compact up to $50K for a luxury SUV. By chance, this probably is a very good reflection of the value of a typical ENG kit ($10K) to fully decked out reality bag ($50K). The rental companies are highly successful, because there is a lot of demand, and they probably don't realize a full ROI until after about 150 to 200 days of rentals. A typical mixer charges so that we see a full ROI in about 50 days (some of us more than that) but of course maintenance and L&D is a killer for our line of work. At this point, it's all math. If you can't realize an ROI in a piece of gear in a timely manner, it was probable a bad business decision to buy it - maybe you should have rented. Nobody cares what you paid for a piece of gear. Nobody cares how much depreciation your gear has suffered, and neither should you. Gear is not an "investment" in so much as it sits in a bank and becomes more valuable. Gear is only as valuable for the rental income it can generate and the labor that it enables you to perform. Some day all of our sound equipment is going to be a hulk of useless electronic junk and when that day comes, it can be added to the pile of other junk in the closet or it can be disposed of. Reality dictates that digital equipment experiences this loss of utility at a much faster rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniel Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 These smaller recording mixers are great but will they be more likely to be "given away" as part of "standard" sound kit ? When the 744 came out there was a four track daily extra rate; and the same with the 788. If the Maxx and 663 aren't charged for then the will be pressure to cut/drop what we charge for the 788/664/744/Nomad.... Er, they may not get "given away" but if you were starting out now or a rental house looking for a machine that could go out on small to medium jobs what would you buy? Charging 1% of purchase cost/day for kit, the price of renting a TC recorder mixer set-up has been getting cheaper for a while. Eg in UK: £30/d for a 633 or a 5 channel SQN with no recorder of any kind. £45/d for a 644 or 744. £27/d for a 552. £60/d for a nagra 6 (or HHB portadat w/TC!) £75/d for a 788. Sooner or later its going to get harder to hire a 744 and external mixer to a production for the price you were paying-off for it at. Unless production are hiring you to carry 8 wireless as well, why would they pay all that extra for a 788 either (cos i insist on using it?). We can enjoy the ignorance of others for a while (633s for 788 rates) but i can't see that lasting for long (because the difference is so big) and maybe some folk will have to hire their 788s for 633 rates when production only want to 4 tracks. Isn't this why the 633 is destined to be a newbie and rental house favourite? It doesn't change what we can charge for the other stuff. And if I dump my mixer and/or my stand alone recorder to buy a mixer/recorder then it will be going out on most jobs. If production say they only want a mixer i'll probably charge them £5-10/d less for kit cos i'm not data wrangling but i will also advise them that If they do ask for recordings during or at the end of the shoot, i'll be sure to have them and will charge a modest premium for the convenience of them being able to change their mind during the shoot. Eg. £10/recorded GB plus cost of card, in cash to take the card home on the day or send files on receipt of purchase order - Ie NO handing over files (and media) to folks without compensation or purchase order. Unless pressing record compromises something they have asked for on the PO what's the harm? You have a chance to sell them an extra service for a premium and even be a 'hero'. Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 12, 2013 Report Share Posted December 12, 2013 TV: " If for some reason my compact car is already booked, I'll try to upgrade them to the full-size. " some of us don't have a lot of cars all sitting around, but we have a full size, and if we are being competitive for a small deal, it might get rented out, with me, as a competitive option. So if I give them the FP-33 price, and bring a 302 or Nomad Lite, no real conflicts, but if I choose to be competitive and end up bringing my 664, or Nomad 12, I will not be offering up the increased capabilities they declined during negotiations... of course this cannot apply to plain old "rentals", Dan: " You have a chance to sell them an extra service for a premium and even be a 'hero'. " bingo, thanks Dan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.279748a58a2b862b7aa5f3b84126e232.png)
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.