imphy Posted December 19, 2013 Report Share Posted December 19, 2013 Hello. I'm new to this forum and also to audio recording. I make music and develop game assets in my spare time and I'd like to move further into sound effect recording. For some time I've had a Zoom H4N for some basic sound effect gathering but I've been disturbed by noise level and background sounds. I also visited a shooting range which was obviously a huge disappointment and some internet searches reviled that recording gun fire requires quite a pricey setup and also a lot of knowledge and experience =) The end of the year is approaching and I will be able to put some money on a decent setup to replace the H4N and I've spent the past three days researching and I would welcome some comments on the following setup. I live in Sweden (terribly expensive and vendor limited) so I will most likely order from an online shop in the UK for better prices but it also restricts the selection of vendors (e.g. no Sennheiser mics, mostly Rode and Audio-Technica) This is what I have in my shopping cart: Tascam DR-680 + Soft Bag I want to be able to record multiple mics with decent phantom power and noise levels. I also choose it because of the 192kHz option as many sounds I record I need to pitch down a huge amount for larger sounding effects. I don't find that 96kHz allows enough pitch shifting. I'm also thinking of adding future mics for simultaneous recording as opposed to going for a Sound Devices 702 which is also pricier to begin with. Rode NTG-3 + Rode Blimp I settled on this shotgun mic with the best available wind/bump protection I could find. This will be my main mic for directional sound effects both outdoors and in my home-recording environment. I am hesitant about mono-recording, but from what I understand that is very common when it comes to sound effects. RODE NT4 + Another Rode Blimp This would be my mic for ambient stereo recordings. I am also thinking a separate blimp for this mic because I'd like to pair it up simultaneously when recording weapons and explosions (if I can find any =) etc. Audio-Technica ATH-M50 Headphones 16 rechargable 2500mA AA batteries + rapid 1h charger 1m + 2m + 5m + 10m XLRF-XLRM mic leads 32GB SD Card 2 x Mic Stands 1 x Folding Table Mic Stand 1 Boom Pole In UK pricing this will set me back £2558 ($4300) although I get the 20% VAT back being a business. With the above in mind, I've got two questions I am hoping you with your expertise can answer: 1. Does the above sound like a decent setup for my purpose? 2. Am I overseeing or forgetting something, or making some stupid choices being new to this? Thanks for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Well it is certainly an upgrade from a Zoom. Have you tried these mics and recorder? I can't recommend strong enough that you consider renting or trying any gear before you buy anything. Travel to the UK or Germany and try some out before buying. In the mean time it sounds like you can spend a year here at jwsound and further your education. There is a wealth of info here and from other sources that will help you make a buying choice. Personally I think a used SD 702 and a better mic would serve you well. So many choices, so little money. We all face this truth throughout our careers. Best of luck imphy. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imphy Posted December 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Thanks CrewC. I haven't tried the equipment due to the limited availability so I'm just piecing together information from different reviews, blogs, and forums. I understand that I can't get an amazing setup for the money and the alternative would be, as you say, to go for a higher quality setup but focus on one mic instead of two. Would you then recommend starting with a single better mono shotgun? There is only one second hand Sound Devices for sale in Sweden, the 744T, for $2812 (retails for $6862 here.) Maybe I should get that and a single shotgun mic with wind protection to begin with. (I should really buy the kit before end of December otherwise I'll have to tax the money prior to purchase losing 22%) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crussell Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Crew C is right on the money as always. Especially the part about learning around here for a while. I'd look at a pair of Line Audio's CM3's, they're made in Sweden and quite affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Where in Sweden do you live? I have pretty much that exact setup. If you're on Stockholm, I could lend it to you. Is recommend a mixer though to put in front of the dr680. I use a 302. The 680 sounds great as is, but a mixer just makes things easier. I don't life the cm3s. They're kinda noisy and sharp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crussell Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 You'd prefer the Rode to the Line Audio's? I haven't done a comparison myself. For what I paid, I think the CM3s are a great value. Not always my first choice but a great value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imphy Posted December 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Where in Sweden do you live? I have pretty much that exact setup. If you're on Stockholm, I could lend it to you. Is recommend a mixer though to put in front of the dr680. I use a 302. The 680 sounds great as is, but a mixer just makes things easier. I don't life the cm3s. They're kinda noisy and sharp. Hi Olle, I live in Nynäshamn but I frequently travel to and from Stockholm. That sounds great and extremely generous of you. I'd love to try it out and get a few basic samples down to get a feel for the workflow and noise levels. I hadn't thought about a mixer as I thought the 680 had enough power and low noise level for the preamps. Even though I want to avoid rushing into a purchase I'd really like to place an order before the end of the year to avoid first having to tax the money and THEN purchase. I'm happy to have found this forum as well - I have a feeling I will learn a lot here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I would consider getting a SD MixPre, 302 or 442 to put in front of the Zoom, and then save up for a better recorder. There have been a fair number of good mixers on the used market lately. Any of these mixers will serve you well for a long time and make your entire setup much more flexible in the long run. The H4n can sound good with a decent mixer in front of it (I have run a 302 in front of mine). I like the NTG-3. I bought one for a backup, and end up using it a lot more than I thought I would. The Rode blimp is heavier than others, but works fine otherwise. The 744 is a nice machine, but has only 2 mic preamps. That is fine for recording 2 mics and 2 line inputs, but would need additional equipment to use more than 2 mics. The 744 and a 442 would make a very versatile combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 I'm not familiar with the Line Audio CM3. Upon perusing the specs the sensitivity is stated as '6mV' which is a low output for recording quiet sounds. Low noise preamps with a lot of gain would be wanted. The 680's preamps are... OK.. but not great. It also does not a front end limiter so the input stage can be easily overdriven. External batteries would be wanted as well. The 'internal' 8 AA batteries don't last long (especially w/ Phantom Powered mics) and they're a real PITA to change when it's in a bag, connected to other gear, which requires almost complete disconnection/reconnection to access the internal batteries.. in a Petrol bag for instance External high quality pre amps would be recommenced.. a MixPre or 302 would be a good start, and later on could be used for a 744 upgrade.. mic inputs 3-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 and, as you are new here --although you should start by reading what has already been discussed here-- remember that it isn't so much about the arrows as it is about the archer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 and, as you are new here --although you should start by reading what has already been discussed here-- remember that it isn't so much about the arrows as it is about the archer... It depends on the arrows as well though, a top archer wouldn't shoot very well if he isn't using the arrows cut to his draw length and the shaft stiffness isn't matched to the weight of his bow and arrow length. You also then need to consider which is the best option either aluminum/carbon hybrid shafts like Easton X10's or full carbon shafts. Then you have you arrow heads, which material and weight ect. I would say a better analogy is "it's not the ball but the footballer" Or soccer in your case ;-) Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 Chris: " a top archer wouldn't shoot very well if he isn't using the arrows... " but a beginner using those advanced arrows still couldn't hit the target... OK: it isn't as much about the clubs, it is more about the golfer..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted December 20, 2013 Report Share Posted December 20, 2013 There is only one second hand Sound Devices for sale in Sweden, the 744T, for $2812 (retails for $6862 here.) You are not restricted to the Swedish 2nd hand market. I have bought used gear from the US usual suspects many times. Just make sure to calculate all the import taxes, shipping fees, etc. It's pretty easy then to find a good bargain. And you can totally trust them with regards to quality (at least in my experience). Also, there is a for-sale list right here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imphy Posted December 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Thanks guys. I did do a fair bit of research and reading prior to posting but as I now revisit the reviews and posts about the 680 again three factors as mention in your replies were lurking in the reviews and as comments. The three factors being noisier preamps, poor limiter, and difficult to read metering. Maybe I subconsciously and foolishly disregarded such comments in favor of the positive reviews due to the number of inputs and the price and I guess for the price it's still really good. I am degrading my current need for more than two inputs because for the foreseeable future I can record sound effects with a single shotgun and ambiences / stereo effects separately with a stereo mic. I'm still strongly considering the NTG-3 with blimp and the NT4 (which is oddly enough on discount in a Swedish store now.) I can wait with multi-mic recordings - my skills are not there...yet. I'll mostly be doing designed sound effects and I want to record the source material. At this time it's not too important that they are authentic, just very clean and with high bit rate to allow a lot of pitching and manipulation. I can record gun fire at the range from multiple angles and since authenticity is not important I can move the mic around and get different angles and distances to be mixed in the computer. With a similar (but higher) budget to my first post I've found a new SD702, NTG-3 + Blimp, NT4 + dead cat - but I have to add cables, battery charger, a bag and a mic stand - the boom pole can wait. I also looked at using a mixer but that would negate what I thought the 680 was good for. Good point that I can use a mixer for my Zoom, but since the mixers are so pricey I may go for the SD702 straight away. Am I right to assume that I won't be needing a mixer in front of a SD702? Feels a bit outdated that the SD only takes CF cards and not SD, but I guess they'll still be available for some time. Edit: "You are not restricted to the Swedish 2nd hand market. I have bought used gear from the US usual suspects many times. Just make sure to calculate all the import taxes, shipping fees, etc. It's pretty easy then to find a good bargain. And you can totally trust them with regards to quality (at least in my experience). Also, there is a for-sale list right here" True - I considered buying from ebay but I believe I have to pay Swedish VAT (25%) as a business on purchases from the US (plus import charges.) Equipment bought within the EU I get VAT return so the difference turned out to be negligible. I didn't consider 2nd hand US though so I have to read up about how that affects tax and import. Thanks. Edit 2: For reference to other prospecting buyers: I just verified and as a Swedish business you have to pay VAT + import charges for items purchased from private individuals outside the EU. Buying a new SD702 in Sweden with VAT exception costs about $300 more than buying the used ones I saw on ebay and craigslist so I'll favor a new one for such a difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 For reference to other prospecting buyers: I just verified and as a Swedish business you have to pay VAT + import charges for items purchased from private individuals outside the EU. Buying a new SD702 in Sweden with VAT exception costs about $300 more than buying the used ones I saw on ebay and craigslist so I'll favor a new one for such a difference. If you have a VAT registered business (and you must have if you can buy in the EU without VAT added) you can reclaim the VAT. Doesn't matter if you buy from a private person or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Hey, there's a great deal at polteknik in skärholmen right now, you get a 633 with batteries and a bag for 30k SEK. Great deal. If you can afford it that is. I have two rode nt5s for sale if you want. Can give you a good deal on those Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 I'd buy a used 416 over the Rode. Very low self noise. And buy the 702 or 744T. It's a winning combination. Get an SM58 for gunfire up close and use the 416 to catch the sound after the shot. You can get a stereo mic later, as you see fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundmanjohn Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 And I can do you a used 702 for SEK 10,750 from the UK. Regards, John Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Thomas Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Not sure where you're looking shop-wise (you mentioned no sennheiser availablilty), but we've got a few 'usual suspects' here who can probably sort you out (and one has a used 702 at the moment). You may have to call or email them as not all of them have all their stock or prices online, and they can probably do you a deal Pinknoise Systems http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk Soundkit http://www.soundkit.co.uk/ Everything Audio http://www.everythingaudio.co.uk Meredith Broadcast / The Audio Dept http://www.meredith.tv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayter Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 There's also http://www.bblist.co.uk/categories.php Lots of used recorders and mics The website is a bit clunky but a great place to look Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imphy Posted December 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 If you have a VAT registered business (and you must have if you can buy in the EU without VAT added) you can reclaim the VAT. Doesn't matter if you buy from a private person or not I think rules are different in Sweden from Germany then. It explicitly said on the tax-site that purchases by a Swedish business from a US private person (or company) is subject to Swedish VAT and duty as it is seen as an imported item. Hey, there's a great deal at polteknik in skärholmen right now, you get a 633 with batteries and a bag for 30k SEK. Great deal. If you can afford it that is. I have two rode nt5s for sale if you want. Can give you a good deal on those So I'd plug the 633 into my current Zoom in such a case? Would the 2 x NT5 be a good directional option for stereo recording as opposed to a general stereo mic? I'd buy a used 416 over the Rode. Very low self noise. And buy the 702 or 744T. It's a winning combination. Get an SM58 for gunfire up close and use the 416 to catch the sound after the shot. You can get a stereo mic later, as you see fit. Thanks for the advice. I'll look more at the 416 - I am guessing the Rode blimp would work for the 416? And I can do you a used 702 for SEK 10,750 from the UK. Thanks - I may very well take you up on this offer! That would save me a great deal. I'll just exhaust the mixer option to be sure, but please drop me a mail at stefan-AT-imphenzia.com so we can discuss payment / shipping =) Not sure where you're looking shop-wise (you mentioned no sennheiser availablilty), but we've got a few 'usual suspects' here who can probably sort you out (and one has a used 702 at the moment). You may have to call or email them as not all of them have all their stock or prices online, and they can probably do you a deal Pinknoise Systems http://www.pinknoise-systems.co.uk Soundkit http://www.soundkit.co.uk/ Everything Audio http://www.everythingaudio.co.uk Meredith Broadcast / The Audio Dept http://www.meredith.tv Thanks for the tips. One of them has a 416 on sale as well. The used 702 from John and a 416 may be an affordable combination then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 The 633 records 6 iso tracks and 2 additional stereo tracks. 192 kHz to 6 tracks. So no need for no zoom. It's a super deal you should really check out. Www.polteknik.se For the type of stuff you want to do, the 633 will serve you real good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imphy Posted December 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 The 633 records 6 iso tracks and 2 additional stereo tracks. 192 kHz to 6 tracks. So no need for no zoom. It's a super deal you should really check out. Www.polteknik.se For the type of stuff you want to do, the 633 will serve you real good. Oh, I had missed it was actually a recorder! That sounds like a superb machine and a good investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Woodcock Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 Buy once cry once, that's what I did when I started and it worked for me, of course that doesn't mean it will work for you. Buy something you will grow into instead of growing out of. Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted December 21, 2013 Report Share Posted December 21, 2013 And now I can't find that deal anywhere any more.. Maybe it was a short campaign, but you could call polteknik next year and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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