Trials and Tribulations in PA..

[Phil Rosati]

Hey guys

    I would like to talk to everyone about the shoot I am on. I apologize in advance for turning this great forum into a shoulder for me to cry on, so to speak, but I wanted to reach out to others who have possibly...and probably...experience some of the same things as me.

    I am currently working on an Indy production in the Philly suburbs. Its a teen love triangle drama, with some sensitive and emotional material, as most movies do. I always try to handle myself in a professional manner, follow set etiquette, respect the jobs of other crew members, as well as the personal space of the actors. This job, in particular, I have found opposition at every turn to allowing me to do my job, and what's best for the production sound track of this film. I've had the AD tell me its impossible to coordinate a bus moving through the background of frame so that it moves after lines have finished, since we wouldn't see it until then anyway. I have been shot down by producers when I requested another take of a close up because a crew member was coughing throughout the take. Instead of two minutes to do take 3, a 10 minute argument ensued, in which we were going again, and all of a sudden checking the gate. Two minutes later the lead actress, a young woman, no more than 21, felt it necessary to explain to anyone that would listen that "film is a visual medium" and that she "prefers to do ADR, because I can see myself and change how I said something." After a conversation with the producer revealing that he had pulled the plug on the close-up at the actors request, I tried to explain to him that I am losing control of the production audio, and that he is setting a precedence for the sound mixers word and professional opinion to be worthless. Of course he pleaded that he and everyone involved are completely committed to good sound, but the line had to be drawn.... Three days later we shot in an echo chamber of a location that we didn't scout until two days before. After scouting I gave production three options of how they could get a usable production track out of the shite location they had picked. One, stage curtains, was too much money/man power, to be feasible. The other, actors letting each other finish, and not overlap, shot down by the first time director because it's not as "real" that way. And the third option....balloons....lots of balloons...in the ceiling, grouped together as sound baffling. Something I posted about in another thread. Surprisingly, the balloons option, also this was the line producer's suggestion. Him and I both agreed this would be the best option. The next day, two helium tanks, and four hundred balloons were purchased. I actually had an inkling of respect from the higher-ups as we all seemed to understand how important something to help the sound was to  a very pivotal scene in a very crappy location. On the day, thirty balloons, laced together with mesh netting floated above a 30'x30' pool....I reiterated that this wouldn't be enough, and basically, the "low budget, no time, no manpower" excuse was thrown in my face. Today, during another pivotal scene, an actors wire cut out. I heard "check the gate" so I went into set, and explained that there were problems with the lav and we should go again. The director of course argued the boom was fine, but the boom had to be five feet above the actor because of shadow issues. After another ten minute argument where the AD, the actor, and I both pleaded for another take, he finally relented. I teched out the lav, everything was fine, we went again without a hitch, and that was that. Five minutes later, the actress, the ADR fan, felt it necessary to comment about "how many sound problems there are on this shoot."

I have really tried to make an effort to be as easy going as possible when I work. I realize how personally I take my job, and how much I love it, and how defensive I am of it. But, I have never encountered such a scenario where I have been met with what seems to be complete opposition to doing my job correctly. I've never gotten to the point where I've said to myself "I'm done, its just not worth the effort anymore." But thats how I feel right now. I am so sick and tired of trying to help people make a better film when they don't seem to want the help. I am completely frustrated and have no idea what I should do. I am starting to get to the point where my frustrations are becoming more and more vocal, where I find myself saying things before I think about them, mostly smart ass comments back at someone's condescension towards the sound dept.

      This post has turned more into ramblings than any sort of question, and I apologize for wasting anyone's time. Basically, I love what I do, and I love doing it well, and I am completely flabbergasted at the fact that someone would seriously oppose the person they hired to be in charge of their audio. Would you question the DP if he said the previous take was bad for them? Would you question the Script Supervisor who told you to go again because the eye line was wrong? Why I have to fight for the same respect as other departments is beyond me. I realize sound can be a relatively easy thing to fix in post, but the cost of a post fix, versus another 2 minutes of a production day seems like a no brainer to me, but I'm just a guy behind a cart.....

Sorry for the ramble, feel free to advise, or commiserate, both, or either, or anything else is much appreciated. Thanks everyone, and good luck.

Phil

[David Waelder]

Funny, I was just wondering whatever happened to the situation of the dialog in the reverberant swimming pool that was a subject of inquiry a week or so ago. (And this gives me an opportunity to say "Thank You" to Jeff Wexler for his words of support for my post on that subject.)

This whole business seems to be really poisoning your experience with this film. I don't think it's a struggle you can win so I think you need to find ways that the project can be a positive experience for you. It sounds like they are planning to loop the show. Worse things can happen. That knowledge can release you from substantial pressure. I recall one small (very low budget) movie I did years ago where the UPM made a point of telling me that they had a deal with the post house for unlimited ADR and were pre-paid on the contracts with the actors. He wanted me to know that working quickly on the tight production schedule would always take precedence over getting good sound and that I was not to take it personally. Perhaps you have a similar situation.

When he was working on The Outer Limits (TV show in the 60s), Conrad Hall would use every opportunity to experiment with different kinds of lighting. The show often had need of expressionistic lighting but Hall would also devise schemes to light the slate one way and then change over the lighting before the director called action. That permitted him to see a variety of effects in dailies without a risk of spoiling the production. Possibly you can do something similar. Rig a plant mike that you can listen to during a rehearsal while you use the boom for the shot. There are no rehearsals, you say? The use the pre-fade listen on your mixer board to sample the alternate mike during the take.

Find a way that you can do the best job they will permit you to do and also hone your experience for the next show. Never worked with a hair rig for a radio mike? This is the show to try it out.

David Waelder

[Philip Perkins]

It sounds like you are doing the best you can.  Try to relax and get into the mindset of the producers, and not let yourself become the film's Designated Whiner.  If you allow this to happen then your requests may be discounted out of hand.  We all end up recording audio we don't like a whole lot, but if the people who's film it actually is (ie not yours) want to work this way then it is up to you to give them what they want how they want it.  A lot CAN be done in post, including ADR, and not cutting sound any slack because of this has become pretty common.  Tell them what they got or didn't get out of the scene (or at least get w/ your own notes and scripty's) and move on.  I used to work for a very good indie director whose response to the sort of issues that you raise was a friendly "Low budg!".  This was his code for "I heard you, I'm sorry you aren't happy with the sound we got here, I'm moving on.  Thanks for trying, but I gotta go."  That is the brutal reality of low budget (and a lot of higher budget) filmmaking.  Remember....you have to leave SOME challenges for post-production...we don't want them getting lazy and bored....

Philip Perkins

[old school]

Phil, this is a good place to vent. We feel the pain. Personally I wouldn't explain and I wouldn't complain. Collect the check and get on another film.

CrewC

[t.elder]

Phil, I'm sorry to hear that you're hating it so much.  It does seem like a bad situ when the lead actress wants to ADR - actors have almost always been a friend of the sound department on the shows that I've worked on, even the very low-budget shows.  It does seem like the producers feel your pain, which is good - keep them on your side!

I always have a couple of low points on a feature, and I try to remember that at least the job's not going to last forever.  Don't know if it will help, but try to keep it in mind.

good luck,

Tim

[berniebeaudry]

Are you sure you haven't died and gone to audio hell?  Seriously, I've never done sound on a feature of any budget but I can understand how this lack of respect can really eat away at you.  You really care about the project and just want it to be the best it can be.  You have professional pride and that's a very good thing.  Easy for me to say, but your only choices are to quit and walk away, or do the best you can under the circumstances and try not to develop an attitude that creates even more lack of cooperation.  I'm sure the experienced feature mixers on this board will have plenty of good advice and encouragement for you.  

Here's a joke to cheer you up.  Apologies if you've already heard it:

Why does thunder always come after lightning?  Because even God has to wait on sound!

Cheers,

Bernie

 

[ProSound]

Phil,

I have been there too suffering on a bad set. Just hang in there and collect your check. On another note I just got a call for a Reality shoot where they don't want to rent a boompole from me because "It just isn't good to use on a reality tv shoot (according to the producer)

[wbrisett]

On another note I just got a call for a Reality shoot where they don't want to rent a boompole from me because "It just isn't good to use on a reality tv shoot (according to the producer)

I'm assuming they want all wireless then?

Wayne

[ProSound]

I am using (2) 302 Mixer since they want 5 wireless and I told them a standard package is 5 wireless and a boom. They commented that they "Don't plan on ever using a boom" I explained to them in a reality tv style shoot sometimes you need a boom to cover things that are unexpected" I will have my boompole with me despite what they think because I know I will need it at some point

[Richard Ragon]

Phil,

I speak for a lot of us here.  We've all been though that really hard job.  I've gone home some nights after a really crappy day, and seriously considered why I was in the business.

By all means, don't be afraid to totally vent here, we can all get a chuckle out of it because WE are the people that have been there - done that.

I was on this AFI film shoot once..  They were shooting the actors from on top of this two story platform. The camera and my boom were on a scissor lift next to the platform.  It was incredibly WINDY, and I had the furr on the Blimp, but it was barely covering the wind.  And, then to make it worse, they had 4 torches on top of the platform (which kept going out from the high winds), and the noise coming from the fire being moved by the wind was like thunder going though the recording.  The director kept saying, "We do we hear all this static??", and then kept insisting on getting the actors on wireless mics, which the clothes rustle would have been far worse on Lav mics..  But for some reason, every director thinks that lavs are the solution too all problems in sound.  When I hear a director state this, I calmly explain that "Lavs are omni directional, a shotgun is highly directional.. and Nothing is better then my 2 thousand dollar boom mic".

Anyway.. the director, was fighting me every step of the way on sound... She flat refused "Ambiance", didn't take any suggestions, didn't ask me if it was good for sound, then had the audacity to complain about the sound she was hearing... And I didn't even get mad, I just calmly explain, and let them make the decision to bury themselves.  You see, you can't TRAIN people to do the "right thing".  It's a discovery that each director either learns, or doesn't..  But either way, they learn it the hard way.. Don't take it personally.  One day they will be in the edit room, listening to the dailies, and make the personal discovery about sound.  And, there's NOTHING that you or anyone like their professor or 5 years of school training can teach them.

But here's one that gets me FIRED UP.. And, I've had two DP's do this one already..

We had a steady shot or a handheld shoot.  For 10 minutes I watched the monitor looking and trying to get an idea where the heck that FRAME LINE is going to be.  I would then relay as best I could to my Boom where the frame is..  However, once we start rolling, the DAM frame changes, and the Boom is in the shot.  If this happens x2, I've had DPs make snide remarks to my Boom Op, "You need to communicate with the mixer here".  I've actually sniped back at the DP, and said "You spend so much time setting up the lights and shot, that you can't give me 2 seconds to let my boom op know where the frame is going to be for him..."  Usually he backs down, and then realizes that he isn't helping anything here..

Seams like snide comments from DPs are pretty common..  But, I've learned that the first guy on set that I try to impress is the DP or Camera, I even make it a point to yell out, "Sounds Ready" in which someone else yells, "Sound is allways ready!", and it helps lighten a tention between crew.  Once you get the respect from other crew members, its easy from that point, and they back you up with directors.

Best advice here..  Just collect the paycheck, do the best you can, move on.  These Low budgets are the worst sets because of inexperience and piss poor planning.. I'm pretty good at spotting these now, and just try to ask for more money, which tends to make them NOT hire me.  After they find a less experienced mixer who undercuts me, he too learns a lesson...

-Richard

[Marc Wielage]

I realize how personally I take my job, and how much I love it, and how defensive I am of it. But, I have never encountered such a scenario where I have been met with what seems to be complete opposition to doing my job correctly. I've never gotten to the point where I've said to myself "I'm done, its just not worth the effort anymore."

Seeing this business from several different sides, I've realized over the years that EVERYBODY feels this way in every department. I just got a page-and-a-half email last night from a DP/ friend of mine who's killing himself on a medium budget feature, where the star is re-blocking scenes, causing big changes and delays in lighting and camera movement. (It doesn't help that every shot is A&B camera wide and tight, which causes almost as many problems for lighting as it does for sound.)

If you're convinced you've done all you can, I think you have to emotionally step away and say, "I've done all I've can, it's the best I can do, and let's move on."

I did a feature (both production sound and post, long story) as a favor to a close friend of mine, and whenever we'd have situations like this, he'd shrug helplessly and I'd grin and say, "no mon', no fun, no hamburger bun," and we'd both laugh. That became a running gag. 90% of their problems were bad locations and lack of planning, but that's par for the course these days. My friend the producer eventually had to deal with fixing all these problems in post, and the solutions were time-consuming and expensive, so at least he learned from the experience.

Last comment: be sure to note all these problems in your sound logs, so whoever does the dialog edit and mix knows the problems were out of your control. I have heard mixers actually comment vocally after a cut, "that's the best we're gonna get -- they won't do a retake." I guess it's kind of a cover-your-ass move, but I can't think of much more you could do, under the circumstances.

--Marc

[Bondelev]

I think I said this in another thread to you, but one thing you learn to do is pick your battles very carefully. If you constantly complain, people will tune you out pretty quickly. If the dialogue is intelligible, you are doing your job. If the environment sounds real and you are matching the camera's perspective, you are doing your job. If there is some problem that it constantly making the dialogue unintelligible, then it's time to complain.

Whenever someone claims "It's only a low-budget production," the correct response is, "Then you must understand how important it is to get it correct now. It's much more expensive to redo everything in post." You have to pay talent to come back in, you have to pay for an ADR stage, you have to pay ADR editors, and the mix takes a lot longer, because Foley and added FX become important in a scene that might not have needed any without the ADR. Plus, you know they will run out of money in post anyway, although I wouldn't say that to them...

Also, if they refuse another take, request wild lines. I use them all the time. If you get the actors do redo the scene without the camera running, you'd be amazed how much better everything gets. And their performance will match very well, so it's much better than ADR.

I know it's difficult... in post I frequently wonder "what was this guy thinking?" and sometimes I'm asked by the director whether or not to hire the sound crew again. In most cases I'll tell them I had no idea what happened on the set so it's not fair for me to judge them. Honestly, I think most people rehire the sound crew because they were easy to work with, and not because they did a great job. So again, picking your battles may be the most important thing you do in your work.

[Richard Ragon]

Somebody on a set once told me...

"NO ADR can match the performance that an actor gives while on the set.  Once an actor is standing in a box, starring at a mic, they can never match the emotion they had while looking at the set, dressed in the costum, and interacting with scenes and other actors."

-Richard

[Bondelev]

Somebody on a set once told me...

"Once an actor is standing in a box, starring at a mic"

I usually use the term "sensory deprivation tank" to describe the ADR booth, and point out that instead of emoting to another actor, they are staring at their own lips on a monitor to make sure they are in synch.

There are quite a number of actors who flat out refuse to do ADR, including some very big names. Others have a 6 or 7 figure paycheck for ADR days to discourage producers from doing it. Still others will deliberately make your life miserable by not showing up, showing up late, arguing about every line, refusing to do lines, or deliberately doing a bad job so that you have to use production (yes, I've dealt with all these cases).

Most good directors and actors hate ADR and bend over backwards to avoid doing it except when absolutely necessary.

[studiomprd]

while most actors prefer not doing ADR, there are also some few that actually prefer it, encourage it, demand it, or deliberately make it necessary.

hard to believe?

one example is a day player on a MOW who was only in a couple scenes; despite requests from the Director, she kept creating noises (kitchen scene) over her lines, and was overheard telling an extra how she needed the extra day's pay (ADR callback) to pay her rent!

I did a movie with an actor from a syndicated show shot in Canada, and the stage was, I'm told, a warehouse that was pretty bad for sound. They routinely looped the entire finished show each week, and this actor had become accustomed to not worrying about his dialog, as he would deal with it in ADR, which he was good at and he preferred; The director went along with the actor, and the movie's producer was POed for the entire shoot...

[Phil Rosati]

Thanks for the posts everyone, I appreciate the support and advice. We are coming up on the last day of the show, and I have tried to take everyone's advice and not beat myself up about the situations they've created for me. Its been a rigorous few days, we've been on overnights for about a week and a half now.It's always great they save those overnights for the last week, isn't it?

Its funny (and comforting) to hear other people's stories and experiences with ADR and actors. The actress on this show, even though she "loves ADR" will make a ton of noise in wides, and when she's off screen, but, of course, out of self preservation she will be as quiet as a church mouse on her angles. She is also a consummate whisperer. I've heard of other bigger actors like this, or just low talkers who end up looping most their lines anyway, just from their low level of speaking.

I think at this point in the job, after speaking my peace, and doing all I can, collecting the check and moving on to the next one is the best thing I can do, for myself, and my sanity! I have been making clear and direct notes about every loud location, every light buzz, every set of heels, everything, to be able to explain to post exactly what was happening. Now, we'll just see if anyone actually reads my notes .

Thanks everyone for your insight, it's great being a part of such a supportive community, and it makes getting through the days a little easier knowing I'm not the only one.

Hey, another thing I've been meaning to ask, how do you guys deal with actors who refuse to let you take off their lavs, and just rip it off and leave it in a heap? I've had two go down already on this show, they went on sounding great, came off not sounding at all..

Thanks guys,

Phil

[t.elder]

I worked with an actor / director who said he loved doing ADR and that his nickname was "Super Looper."  He claimed that he looped his entire performance in one film because of a horrible cold he had throughout the shoot that made his voice very phlegmatic.  The thing was that he told me this to reassure me that it would be OK when I told him there might be sound problems, not because he didn't respect me and my boom operator's work, and this made a huge difference.

On the other hand, my personal favorite is a television director who told me on a location scout, after I explained that there would be problems with street noise in a location, that "I don't give a fuck about sound...I'll get the good sound at Todd AO."

Tim

[al mcguire]

phil

I think sitting down and writing out the days events is a wonderfully cathartic way of dealing with your projects challenges, especially if you can  find a chuckle or 2 after the day is over.

You want to do good work  and you are doing the best they will let you do.

Take good notes and keep your good attitude.

al mcguire

[Philip Perkins]

I usually use the term "sensory deprivation tank" to describe the ADR booth, and point out that instead of emoting to another actor, they are staring at their own lips on a monitor to make sure they are in synch.

There are quite a number of actors who flat out refuse to do ADR, including some very big names. Others have a 6 or 7 figure paycheck for ADR days to discourage producers from doing it. Still others will deliberately make your life miserable by not showing up, showing up late, arguing about every line, refusing to do lines, or deliberately doing a bad job so that you have to use production (yes, I've dealt with all these cases).

Most good directors and actors hate ADR and bend over backwards to avoid doing it except when absolutely necessary.

In post, I've lost count of the number of times that we've tweaked and torqued a problematic line or scene, ADRed it, then tweaked and torqued those lines to get them to sit in the scene only to have the director go back to the problematic production sound and live with it: the performance just wasn't happening in the ADR.

Philip Perkins

[Ron Scelza]

Hang in there buddy --With affection..  Happens to the best of us!

Enjoy it all

Sincerely

Ron Scelza

[Philip Perkins]

Re actors ruining lavs and TX:  this is a FINANCIAL matter, and no one (should) expect you to keep quiet about it.  If the actor will not respond to your requests to handle your gear yourself, then you need to talk to the producer or UPM about it right away, and inform them that there will be loss and damages charges for all damage done by talent to your equipment.  If the actor is a star, they will probably tell you to leave them alone, keep track and settle up later.  If they are not--I've had producers talk to the actors directly about this--even ones who were not particularly friendly to me or sound.  Don't wait to do this until the shoot is over, deal with this now.  I had one situation involving Famous Director and Famous Talent where the talent broke his mic on purpose and tossed his TX.  When I went in to deliver the audio for that day I taped the broken gear to the tape boxes and made sure the producer saw it and asked about it.  I was compensated.

Philip Perkins

[Bondelev]

In post, I've lost count of the number of times that we've tweaked and torqued a problematic line or scene, ADRed it, then tweaked and torqued those lines to get them to sit in the scene only to have the director go back to the problematic production sound and live with it: the performance just wasn't happening in the ADR.

Based on my experience, at least 50% of ADR gets thrown out on the dub stage because of performance issues. Directors love the production sound, no matter how bad it sounds (even when the ADR is good... they are just used to hearing the production).

Then there are lines thrown out for weak sync (not as much of a problem any more),or poor recording quality - there aren't that many great ADR stages, especially outside major cities.

[Noah Timan]

I've heard of other bigger actors like this, or just low talkers who end up looping most their lines anyway, just from their low level of speaking.

There's one famous actor I can think of who's famous for deliberately mumbling everything during production so he can loop it all later.  I've heard of him doing this on three separate films from three separate mixers.  On one film he won the best actor Oscar and the film got nominated for the best sound Oscar, so sometimes there are happy endings to these things.

I have been making clear and direct notes about every loud location, every light buzz, every set of heels, everything, to be able to explain to post exactly what was happening. Now, we'll just see if anyone actually reads my notes .

They won't, but yours won't be the first or last tracks they've heard that have heels and light buzzes in them.  Do everything you can to address these problems on set, of course, but beyond that the useful notes are probably going to be indicating which take you might have gotten an offending line recorded cleanly, rather than a litany of excuses about how the gaffer wouldn't use a quieter dimmer or wardrobe wouldn't allow you to foam the heels.

Hey, another thing I've been meaning to ask, how do you guys deal with actors who refuse to let you take off their lavs, and just rip it off and leave it in a heap? I've had two go down already on this show, they went on sounding great, came off not sounding at all..

Bill production for the damages.  Make sure the information goes on the production report at the end of the day when this happens.

On the overall subject of your original post -- while we all can sympathize, and while we all have been there, it is maybe worth considering that we are not the only ones on set who get run over.  I know how it sometimes feels like we are all alone and everybody else gets exactly what they want, but I've seen on projects (of all budgets) camera operators and DPs not getting another take even if they were unhappy with the select (unless it was out of focus), script supervisors not getting another take when there was a continuity problem, wardrobe and hair people, and so forth.  In the end, directors (both experienced and green) are often going to go for the performance, and if they get that performance, that's what's going to end up in the movie unless the take is absolutely unuseable for one reason or another.  Since sound can be "fixed" later it's pretty low on the totem pole as far as these things go, but there are directors that understand what can happens to performances in ADR with some actors, and in those cases you usually get another take, at least some of the time.

nvt