Jim Gilchrist Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Marc: " Fincher goes off on a boom op for daring to get a boom shadow in the frame, " didn't I read that Mr. Fincher once tell sound it would be OK to be in a shot, and he would remove it in post ? Yes, under many circumstances. On the Netflix show, quite often. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 I have $5 that says that that outburst directed at the boom op was both really about something else and had been building for a long time…. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadasound Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Hey everybody! I figured I'd chime in and clear some things up about HOC and what it's like working with Fincher and our incredible set. I've been involved with HOC since the pilot and have spent time in every position in the sound dept, including audio playback and 2nd unit mixing (good friend Jim Gilchrist has also mixed 2nd unit). As for the sound crew, we ARE a full sound crew, utilizing 2 boom operators 90% of the time. Positions have flopped around a bunch the first season, but mixers have been Mark Weingarten, who completed the first 8 episodes of season 1, and Baltimore local and my mentor, Lorenzo Millan, has been the mixer for the rest of the show. As for the first season with Fincher, remember that he was only the director for the first 2 episodes and 2nd unit. Other then that, he was only an email away from department heads. I worked as a boom operator and audio playback for Fincher's episodes, and I will say that he is an incredible director with a clear vision in what he wants and he fought to get it. The crew admired him in the fact that he completed his days without really going over 13 hours and got what he wanted. He was efficient when he wanted to be, and patient when he needed to be. However, Fincher did have a strong way of running his set, and if it wasn't respected, you were gone. Certain things were a little over the top, but it was his show, so as we all do, we hunker down and get the job done. There was plenty of yelling and screaming at crew members, but this isn't foreign to us. I'd say most of his outbursts were out of frustration from other stressers. There were moments where he yelled at myself or the 1st boom op about a shadow. He'd come onto set, grab the pole and swing it around to see the shadows himself, then tell you to figure it the f**k out... And we did and it worked. In the end, he got what he wanted, and was happy with his crew, especially the locals from Baltimore. After he left directing, things were very different from director to director. Some finished in 10 hours, some in 20. It was rough, but it worked. The crew was a really positive group of people. However, there was still a lot of stress and anxiety between the crew and case because nobody knew how well the show would end up... Which brings us to season 2... After the show being really successfull, the set was a lot more relaxed, especially with Kevin and Robin, who are incredible people. The biggest differences in this season were what Fincher requested from the editing room via email. - he finally got his ACs to pull front their own monitors, and everything on the cameras was practically wireless, including video, TC and audio through his RED proprietary/beta test model Epics and their wireless monitoring system. - All background and principle shoes were to be thick rubber souls and heels, which is nothing new to us. The BEST thing he implicated in season 2, however, was allowing us boom ops to break frames and get as tight as we want. As long as it was a static shot and no one was crossing the mic or pole, we could be wherever we wanted. Took time for operators and us boomers to get used to, but was used almost every day throughout the entire season. This cost production little to no additional cost since it was able to be painted out without outsourcing to another pos house. Was really incredible to work with, and I think it's evident in the quality of the season. Other then that, I can't think of anything else to mention, except that the show is amazing to work on... Especially for myself, getting a break from booming Veep full time, wiring up to 18 people some days and completing on average 20 pages a day... Breaking frame with a 50 with a 4 page day is a dream! Anyways, here's the season 2 sound crew: Lorenzo Millan - Sound Mixer (Baltimore) Randy Pease - Boom Op (VA) Christopher Jones - 2nd Boom/Utility (VA) Steve Saada - Addtl Boom Op (Baltimore) Steve LaFayette - Addtl Boom Op (DC) 2nd unit mixers: Jim Gilchrist (Baltimore) John Gooch (Philly) Steve Saada Boom op: Steve Saada Lenny Schmitz (DC) Paul Schmitz (DC) Steve Lafayette Brian Garfield (Philly) If I'm missing anyone, I apologize and please let me know! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Marc: " Fincher goes off on a boom op for daring to get a boom shadow in the frame, " didn't I read that Mr. Fincher once tell sound it would be OK to be in a shot, and he would remove it in post ? When I saw the clip, I thought, "there's always a chance that Fincher was yelling at the guy for a different reason." Maybe it was easier to yell at the boom op than it was to freak out the actor... but the moment is preserved for all eternity on the Social Network making-of documentary. Generally, removing the boom in post is not a big deal, assuming it's not in the actor's face or something. Any experienced director who understands post won't ever fret about this. The BEST thing he implicated in season 2, however, was allowing us boom ops to break frames and get as tight as we want. As long as it was a static shot and no one was crossing the mic or pole, we could be wherever we wanted. Took time for operators and us boomers to get used to, but was used almost every day throughout the entire season. This cost production little to no additional cost since it was able to be painted out without outsourcing to another pos house. Was really incredible to work with, and I think it's evident in the quality of the season. Great info, Steve! Always good to get the right information right from the source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Steve's info is right on, other than my being a DC guy. Second unit is a little more stressful than first unit on HOC, with higher page counts (sometimes 8 a day) and that we're generally there because there's been a problem of some kind with what's already been done. Working on the stage is pretty swell and being able to break the frame makes it easy to do good work. The 2nd unit camera packages are rentals so they're not quite as deluxe as the first unit's but that has little impact on us. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadasound Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 CORRECTION! Brian JORDAN, not Garfield. Great boom operator and all around great guy to be around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Martin Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 The BEST thing he implicated in season 2, however, was allowing us boom ops to break frames and get as tight as we want. As long as it was a static shot and no one was crossing the mic or pole, we could be wherever we wanted. Took time for operators and us boomers to get used to, but was used almost every day throughout the entire season. This cost production little to no additional cost since it was able to be painted out without outsourcing to another pos house. Was really incredible to work with, and I think it's evident in the quality of the season. Amazing. it's hard enough convincing people that the boom can be in frame for green screen, let alone for a regular static shot. Big win for the sound dept! Congrats on that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Thanks for the great report from a state of the art show. Very helpful. phil p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Steve's thorough description of shooting with Fincher seems to reinforce the article and others experiences. I certainly get it is his show to run the way he wants, my only point is it doesn't have to be that way. He chooses to have it that way. And of course we choose to work with him or not. On another note and it could be its own topic, breaking the frame for better sound. It is a welcome use of our current tech abilities. I'm seeing it a little in commercials and hope it becomes wide spread in the future. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadasound Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Crew, I totally agree with you. There are so many different ways we've seen it done. Fincher is great at what he does, but it doesn't mean it's the best and only way to go about creating a great show. I hope the painting of boompoles catches on more and more, as well as the importance of sound quality on any genre show. If I could break frame on Veep, I'd make Waco Bill MacPherson a very happy mixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Waco use to break frame all the time in his short boom career. Sadly it was before our new capabilities to easily/cheaply paint them out. Bill would be the first to tell you he was an average boom op at best. Great guy and top notch mixer though. You're lucky you get to hang with him Steve. Enjoy. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 What exactly is needed for the Avid etc to be able to do that painting easily? I'm guessing it is something that can be done very quickly and easily and maybe even partly autoamted for the "break frame" permissions to be granted. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Hey Philip, we are doing more shots where we shoot clean plates and then have c stands n flags etc in the shot these days. Not sure how post and VFX handle it but I'm seeing it more and more. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saadasound Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Phil, As far as I know, as long as we give post 6 frames of the static shot to work with, then we can go ahead and do our thing. On HOC, we don't physically slate anything, it's all done through metadata on iPads, so once we hear the RED fans turns off, we can go ahead and drop in after a beat. As far as in Avid, I'm not sure. Crew, It's an absolute pleasure booming for Bill. He's a great boss, especially on Veep. Tons of good times over the last 2 years with him, and plenty more to come. I hear all about Milagro and the old days with Crew. Hope to be out in LA soon and meet you! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Give me a call when you come west Steve. I'll straighten you out on Bill n my days together. I can tell you one thing on a public forum, we had more fun than the stories can ever portray. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macruth Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 On another note and it could be its own topic, breaking the frame for better sound. It is a welcome use of our current tech abilities. I'm seeing it a little in commercials and hope it becomes wide spread in the future. CrewC This indeed could, should be a thread of it's own... I can attest that on a recent high-profile big-budget show, a "notorious" bad-boy director was completely receptive to the concept of allowing our booms into the wider 2 of the minimum 4 cameras per shot, VFX team were totally on board, I hope this is a trend... sorry to go off-topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Coffey Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 completed his days without really going over 13 hours......There were moments where he yelled at myself or the 1st boom op I rest my case. What an asshole! This is one of the only remaining American businesses where it's still an accepted practice to yell at their employees and work them over 60 hours a week, for months at a time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 Robert Schnieder: " 14 hours of work that gets 17-1/2 hours pay... When you get up to 16 or 17 hours, you're paying for 22 or 23. It's nuts! " ... and is frankly only equal to about 12 hours of work by the crew... after 10 hours, productivity, and or quality, goes down; I've seen (and been on) crews at 17 hours, and it takes ~ twice as long to get anything done as it did at the beginning of the day. John Lindley: " sure there are some people who want all the overtime they can get, ...(but)... Is the 16-hour shooting day a practical idea? Is there any employer in any industry who can honestly say that a worker in the 16thhour of a work shift is so productive that he or she should be paid twice their hourly wage? " and 38-year veteran director Alexander Singer whose credits include five features and 286 television shows ...: "Very few of us are doing our best work in the 15th or 20th hour, and all of us have sat alongside death in our cars, driving home, struggling to stay awake behind the wheel." Yudi Bennet: "You have shows that have so little money,they pull the plug after 12 hours. Then you have the other extreme: shows that repeatedly work 19 and 20 hours. " I've been on both, as well, and both scenarios produce good results. One very long lived, popular, award winning TV program switched from long hours, to 12 or less, and continued to be popular and win awards... viewers never saw a difference! here's the deal-killer, from LeonDudevoir, : " the savings have to come from somewhere, and it's coming from the pockets of the crew members. They'd be working more days, but they'd be straight-time days. There are only 52 weeks in a year, and they'd be making less money per week... They would be getting more time in their life, and that is important, but it is more important to some and less to others " remember I've said it takes years of experience to get years of experience..? Well that is the same for John Coffey, and some of us old farts... we only figure out that the long hours are bad for us after years of loving ($$) them... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 15, 2014 Report Share Posted March 15, 2014 All true Mike, but very few work 40 weeks a year let alone 52 weeks. My guess is 10 hour days could easily become a workable norm. It would be nice. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 What exactly is needed for the Avid etc to be able to do that painting easily? I'm guessing it is something that can be done very quickly and easily and maybe even partly autoamted for the "break frame" permissions to be granted. With a clean plate and a locked shot, it's no big deal my vfx buddies say. But even without a clean plate, those guys can do a whole lot of impressive removal with inexpensive tools (and rocking skills...and time at a very healthy rate). Check out one tool my friends use. This demo is from a few years ago. Still pretty cool... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 So, to a producer, would this mean that sloppy non pro boom ops are ok, ones who can't stay out of the shot? Sorry, bad mood. My question was really around just exactly how expert an editor would need to be with just how expensive a plugin to be able to do this as SOP? Thanks Jim philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Ha. Philip, I see your point. But even breaking the top frame line still takes skills. Not every monkey can do it. Thanks Jim. What a tool set. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 So, to a producer, would this mean that sloppy non pro boom ops are ok, ones who can't stay out of the shot? Sorry, bad mood. My question was really around just exactly how expert an editor would need to be with just how expensive a plugin to be able to do this as SOP? Thanks Jim Phil, even I have successfully removed crap from shots. And I'm a hamfisted editor and VFX idiot (though I do like screwing around with technology). For boom removal, you could just use Adobe After Effects (which includes a cut-down version of Mocha, the app demoed above). So these days, that's $20/month (or $30-$50/mo for access to all of Adobe's apps*). Obviously there are alternative applications at lower and higher prices...but this stuff is fairly cheap now (say, $1000-$2500 for good "used in blockbusters" stuff), and modern computers can crank through these shots pretty damn quickly. There are some really good Jay-Rose quality training videos and books available... It's not that hard to do a mediocre (but sometimes acceptable) job removing simple things. But like anything making it great takes experience. And unsurprisingly, my vfx buds would much rather use their skills to make something awesome rather than just not crappy. So ya, when word gets out, we'll see indies cutting corners in new and infuriating ways...and then see the money saved on set instead spent on fixes in post...(or they'll get a bunch of students to fix things for credit). All this stuff is a great tool for people like Fincher...and a crutch for some other people. Jim "Pundit of the Obvious" Feeley *Let me disclose that I've done some contracting work for Adobe. I'm not trying to promote their stuff here; I'm just more familiar with After Effects (an Adobe app) than with the alternatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Gilchrist Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 The point of breaking the frame on HOC is simple: get the best sound. It's faster and easier for post to replace the parts of the frame that the mic gets into than to fix scratchy tracks from buried lavs. The actors don't have to deal with the sound department touching up mic placement between takes and can stay more focused on their performance. Costs less, better performances. Seems pretty much a no-brainer to me. Best regards, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Feeley Posted March 16, 2014 Report Share Posted March 16, 2014 Jim, but with HOC everyone knows what they're doing and why. No worries... Move downmarket and the "knows what they're doing" thing gets a bit less universal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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