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Hi all. . .

It's been a lot of fun reading what some of you folks are saying about poor little ol' me here in Kansas and my film-dreams-coming-true project.

I just wanted to correct a few misconceptions.  Someone mentioned that we were using a 416 and figured "we'd get what we are paying for" (in other words, not much).  In point of fact, the audio we are getting is just stupendous on this shoot.  Our sound mixer, Jithu, was an electrical engineer before switching to sound design and now has two degrees in sound design (including an MFA).  He knows what he is doing, and with a great young boom operator (a wonderful young man by the name of Adam), we're getting everything we had hoped we would.  If using the best possible gear and the best possible individuals gets you to 100%, then I think we're at about 80% on this project, and that's certainly a Hollywood standard I can live with.  Frankly, I could not be more pleased with our audio.

As Sergio has noted, I originally had wanted to use him for our audio, and I'm sure he'd have been terrific, but we had to change our shooting schedule to run over three months shooting every other day instead of five weeks running full-out, which meant that I had to go a different direction.

As for the audio gear, please pass the word that there are no 416s on the set.  Instead, we are using a Sound Devices 442, a Sound Devices 788T, a Lectrosonics VR Field Receiver, four Lectro 400-series digital hybrid transmitters, great lavs (four Sonotrims with both wireless and wired capabilities, and two Countryman B6 lavs with wire/wireless capabilities), a carbon fiber boom pole, two Schoeps CMC6 bodies with a wide variety of matched-pair capsules (MK2, MK4, MK41) for interiors and special purposes (including a Schoeps active cable for hiding the mics in a set), a Schoeps CMIT-5U shotgun mic, and top-notch Rycote wind protection systems.  It's a great, great kit.

We'll be posting the first 8 minutes of the film very soon.  I have a 1.3 gig file in a 720p compressed format (a 2K download would take forever, and almost no one has a computer fast enough to play it, anyway), that I'm currently looking for a host for.  That clip has not been sound designed, and, except for a little trip into Color, it's not been toyed with visually, either.  It's just the straight picture and audio coming off Final Cut Pro.  We are using SonicFire for the moment for the music tracks.  It's exceedingly impressive stuff.

As for the RED, let us just say that all the naysayers clearly have never really used this camera.  It's an utterly amazing machine.  We are shooting "Works in Progress" in 4K, but doing a 2K finish.  The 4K setting uses the entire sensor and therefore yields the true 35mm depth-of-field I was looking for in the film.  It looks every bit as good as any film I've seen.  Period.  Seeing is believing, so check back to our site in a few days and see for yourselves.  (But remember, this is just a 720p compression of the 2K RAW file and has not been sweetened or toyed with at all.)

Good luck with your projects.

Stephen

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wow, and thanks for your blessed report.

I am looking at an article in the June issue of HDVideoPro and it looks like even a most basic RED one kit requires about $30k, and well equipped (18-50 + 50-150 lens, storage, matt box, filters, batteries, storage, monitors/viewfinders get up past $50k pretty quickly.

Sure, it is probably a great unit (I'm not a camera person, so others are better suited to judge) that has not been in dispute,  but it isn't "true" 4K, and while about 3000 RED's are "sold" (mostly still on BO) they are a unique system, and there still isn't an established workflow for them in the industry; but that will also change.

and another article in HDVideoPro (I was just reading it this morning) explains that many folks at a "shoot-out" including a RED and an under $10k w lens Sony EX1 felt the 3 x 1/2" CMOS sensor EX1 looked better than the single sensor, Bayered (2 green pixels for every red and blue pixel, which requires interpolation from the pixels around them, and windowed to 2k

Sounds like you also spent a lot of money acquiring sound equipment, too.  one thing I've always said (in fact it is a rule!) is that "generally speaking, you get what you pay for" and you have, indeed bought quality equipment.

after you wrap, will the investors own 50% of the equipment, too??

did you also buy grip/lighting packages??

2 DP's and, wow, a MFA sound mixer; glad he is doing so well.

in that same issue (!) the article on Sound includes an interview with Marc Vanocur, Sr. VP. at Technicolor; asked for his advice to producers and directors on how to improve the sound that they end up with he says:"One job not done properly in production can take eight jobs in post to fix ... Ir's also important to hire the best production sound mixer you can; in the long run it will cost you less money in fixes"

I understand the studios are sending their executives to study your "alternate days" shooting model.

I just know Sergio is heartbroken he can't be with you...

please keep us posted on your glorious progress, and bountiful successes!

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Greetings Stephan,

Correct me if I'm wrong here.. You went out a bought 50 thousand dollars worth of audio gear, so that you can get a formar electrical engineer to run the sound?  But, wouldn't it have been a lot better (and cheaper) to just spend the money to hire someone?  Perhaps I'm missing part of the story here?

BTW:  Please call me when you post the gear on eBay!.  Thanks

-Richard

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Hi Borg. . .

As it happens, the audio gear only ran me about $30,000.  And my electrical engineer is not JUST an EE, he's also a very well-trained location sound expert, as well.  I get the best of both worlds in one person.

FYI, the REDs are only about $35,000 each, so they aren't quite as expensive as some have stated.  As for the lighting control and lights (HMIs, fluors, halogens) and all of the other gaffer/grip goodies (butterflies, stands, dollies, jibs, etc.), we have all of that gear, as well.  I did the math and it makes absolutely zero sense in our case to rent gear, when buying is actually cheaper.  Remember, we are shooting over three months.  For example, a three-month rent for a RED, if we found a great deal, would be at least what it cost us to buy them new (and probably much more).  And we've still got the cameras (which are selling for more than list due to the extensive back-orders) when it's all over!

Happily the investors aren't buying any of the gear.  That's all been paid for by my wife and me.  We'll be using that gear on our next couple of films.  The investors are just paying for the variable costs of the film (actors, crew, other expenses), and, in return, will be getting 50% of the resulting revenue stream.  We just started chasing the dollars, and things are already looking up.  However, we aren't looking for much money, either. . . only $100,000.  There's no doubt about it. . .this is a very, very low budget film.  But the film world is rapidly changing, and the great majority of indie films of the future will be shot exactly the way we're shooting ours:  Low budgets combined with state-of-the-art technology.  (And, no, I don't expect Hollywood insiders to come study our methods.  :-)

Anyway, good luck with all your projects!

Stephen

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I'm not a nay-sayer, and I am very interested in new modes of production.  Please send a link to your film's website so we can look for it--I'm sure I have something to learn from how you are making your movie.  Since you bought so much gear I'm guessing you have plans to make more films this way, and I'd like to hear about them. 

Philip Perkins

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please note, a few minor changes to my previous post in this topic/thread....

well, that does sound very Christian of you (and the Mrs.) as you are providing over $100k to the project in equipment you own.  I guess you are sort of renting it to the production for your 50% ??

I had some friends years ago who got a government grant (or two) to do a documentary project, and bought the equipment with the grant $$$, and then, of course, owned the equipment (which was soon obsolete).

yep, your economics experience and training are at work.

there was inspiration in that magazine I read this morning, too: "Gabriel" was made for Aus$200,000. though they chose only a single JVY GY100HD, (and only a single DP!!) it was transferred to film, and has "been picked up by Sony Pictures for worldwide release" .

plus, you have your deity on your side, too!!

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Just doing the math from the Apple web store, I guestimate a further investment of about $29,000 of hardware and software (excluding FC Pro and/or FC Server) to cope with a RED cam 4K workflow in the most friendly environment. This includes a loaded Mac Pro, at $22,850 or so with the required memory and display options to expedite workflow and file acquisition and a loaded 17" MacBook Pro for on-set use. There is no allowance for redundant RAID storage, etc. in these numbers.

These numbers come from experience. One of my main employers has purchased a RED and has spent about this to make the camera work in a doc environment.

Just a note: Mileage figures may not reflect your driving experience.

Best to all,

JG

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Hi there, Jim. . .

I actually have purchased a very hot Mac Pro (fastest 8-core available, lots of memory, two cinema displays (one 30 inch and one 23 inch), Kona 3 card (allows for real-time playback of pixel-to-pixel 2K files), HD Link Pro, loads of software (FCS, Nattress plug-ins, Shake, etc., etc., etc.).  It wasn't ANYWHERE near $22,500.  That's only if you are buying Apple memory and drives (way overpriced!).  I think we spent about half that.  (Oh, I didn't count the MacBook Pro in that total.)  This stuff just isn't that expensive or we couldn't do it.  And the memory costs are almost inconsequential.  We'll be able to store this entire film on a lot less than $10,000 worth of drives.  (And that's with multiple redundancies!)

Hi there, Studio. . .

I'm not sure if you are complimenting me there or not.  :-)  Truthfully, the financial side of the film really is very, very generous to our investors.  We wrote the script (working almost full-time for over two years), bought all of the gear, did all of the preproduction work (including hiring the crew and identifying locations), and are producing and directing the film.  We aren't charging the film any rental costs for the equipment at all. Our investors are only paying for the cast and crew (about $75,000 in total) and for gasoline, meals, etc.  And for that, we're keeping 40% of the film.  (My best friend is getting 10% for serving as Co-DP).  And if we can't raise the money, that's okay.  We're prepared to pay for it all ourselves.

As for my economics training, well, this is a labor of love.  Pure and simple.  If I was in it for the money, we wouldn't be doing it in the first place.  :-)Our sole objective is to make a great, redeeming, wholesome film.  And if it doesn't make a dime, that's okay with everyone.  We just want everyone to be 100% proud of the final product when it's all said and done.  But, in point of fact, if we take care of the art, the market will take care of us.  And, even if it doesn't, that won't matter one bit to me.  I'm not about economic success (I've already got that as a professor).  I'm only about the art.  The shot.  The dream.  Crazy, I know.

Thanks again.

Stephen

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Good luck with your project. My client has had less than optimal results trying to do things on the cheap. Including buying equipment and hiring somebody to operate it.

So they went back and reconsidered where the money went down the drain.... Including buying gear and hiring somebody (a PA) to run it vs. hiring a professional sound recordist with a complete recording package. The money guy saw my recording equipment was 24 bit, RED does that so why do we need to pay for that. Editor says RED sounds bad. Etc, etc, etc...

JG

Hi there, Jim. . .

I actually have purchased a very hot Mac Pro (fastest 8-core available, lots of memory, two cinema displays (one 30 inch and one 23 inch), Kona 3 card (allows for real-time playback of pixel-to-pixel 2K files), HD Link Pro, loads of software (FCS, Nattress plug-ins, Shake, etc., etc., etc.).  It wasn't ANYWHERE near $22,500.  That's only if you are buying Apple memory and drives (way overpriced!).  I think we spent about half that.  (Oh, I didn't count the MacBook Pro in that total.)  This stuff just isn't that expensive or we couldn't do it.  And the memory costs are almost inconsequential.  We'll be able to store this entire film on a lot less than $10,000 worth of drives.  (And that's with multiple redundancies!)

Hi there, Studio. . .

I'm not sure if you are complimenting me there or not.  :-)  Truthfully, the financial side of the film really is very, very generous to our investors.  We wrote the script (working almost full-time for over two years), bought all of the gear, did all of the preproduction work (including hiring the crew and identifying locations), and are producing and directing the film.  We aren't charging the film any rental costs for the equipment at all. Our investors are only paying for the cast and crew (about $75,000 in total) and for gasoline, meals, etc.  And for that, we're keeping 40% of the film.  (My best friend is getting 10% for serving as Co-DP).  And if we can't raise the money, that's okay.  We're prepared to pay for it all ourselves.

As for my economics training, well, this is a labor of love.  Pure and simple.  If I was in it for the money, we wouldn't be doing it in the first place.  :-)Our sole objective is to make a great, redeeming, wholesome film.  And if it doesn't make a dime, that's okay with everyone.  We just want everyone to be 100% proud of the final product when it's all said and done.  But, in point of fact, if we take care of the art, the market will take care of us.  And, even if it doesn't, that won't matter one bit to me.  I'm not about economic success (I've already got that as a professor).  I'm only about the art.  The shot.  The dream.  Crazy, I know.

Thanks again.

Stephen

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Sergio, step away from the keyboard...

Is that the real reason Stephen? Didn't you said that my quote was way over your budget? Oddly enough you spent up to $30 grands of your money (or someone else's) on Audio Gear, not to mention whatever your current Sound Mixer and BoomOp fees are; plus a good $35k on a second Red Camera, You're not making any sense.

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I have no problems with Sergio or anyone else.  He clearly is a seasoned vet, well-deserving of his pay.  Indeed, I checked his references and everyone gave him top marks.

It is absolutely true that Sergio's quote for 5 weeks WAS way over my original expectations at that time.  As he knew, I was going to be paying him over twice what I was paying anyone else in the cast or the crew.  But I was certainly willing to do so.  The real change came when we decided we couldn't do what we wanted to do in five weeks and still live to tell the tale. . . we would have to shoot over 12 weeks.  That change would have taken his "salary" (such as it was) to over FOUR times as much as anyone else.  It simply couldn't be done.  As it happens, my wisdom (dumb luck?) to shoot over the entire summer has certainly been vindicated by many developments since that time. 

We're a young crew, so we don't work as fast as the pros.  But we are having the times of our lives and everyone is just the best of friends.  It literally is an amazing blessing.  Young crews make mistakes, but they also make miracles.  I will never forget that I was never smarter, more productive, or more innovative in my career as a college professor than the day I got my Ph.D.  It's been all downhill ever since.  :-)

As far as the audio on the RED, it's true that phantom power is inoperable at this point.  But that's okay, as we were always planning on using the 442 for a preamp, anyway.  We are always running a double system, running lines to both the 788T and the RED.  However, in side-by-side audio comparisons, we simply cannot hear any audible differences between the audio lined-in to the RED and the audio recorded directly into the 788T itself.  Of course, there must be differences, since we are talking about a second pass through AD/DA converters, but we honestly can't hear it.  Since the RED files have the audio already in synch with the video (which saves an enormous amount of time), it therefore, for us, makes no sense to use the 788T's audio files except in that rare instance where some obvious glitch occurs with the RED's audio (like when we run out of media on a great take).  Now, it is possible that the 442/788T combination is not of sufficient quality in and of itself, but that seems pretty unlikely.  It is also possible that we just can't hear obvious differences that are there.  But our conclusion is that the RED's audio recording capabilities are absolutely to the standards we'll need for a great final audio product.  Perhaps I could set up a little experiment and see if you folks can tell the difference between the RED and the 788t?  I'm guessing that the experiment will reveal, as recent 44 versus 88 sample rate tests certainly did, that even seasoned pros can't tell the difference between them.

Stephen

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Salary is a relative question, and I'm sure much like myself there is a family to support.

On the other hand, feel free to hire somebody with nothing to loose. There is a reason we make our living doing this....

JG

PS How much would you save by renting a camera package that would meet your needs?

I have no problems with Sergio or anyone else.  He clearly is a seasoned vet, well-deserving of his pay.  Indeed, I checked his references and everyone gave him top marks.

It is absolutely true that Sergio's quote for 5 weeks WAS way over my original expectations at that time.  As he knew, I was going to be paying him over twice what I was paying anyone else in the cast or the crew.  But I was certainly willing to do so.  The real change came when we decided we couldn't do what we wanted to do in five weeks and still live to tell the tale. . . we would have to shoot over 12 weeks.  That change would have taken his "salary" (such as it was) to over FOUR times as much as anyone else.  It simply couldn't be done.  As it happens, my wisdom (dumb luck?) to shoot over the entire summer has certainly been vindicated by many developments since that time. 

We're a young crew, so we don't work as fast as the pros.  But we are having the times of our lives and everyone is just the best of friends.  It literally is an amazing blessing.  Young crews make mistakes, but they also make miracles.  I will never forget that I was never smarter, more productive, or more innovative in my career as a college professor than the day I got my Ph.D.  It's been all downhill ever since.  :-)

Stephen

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Do I think we're getting sound as good as we could if we used the best audio recordists?  Absolutely not!  But I'm also certain that most people sitting in theaters will never be able to tell the difference.  How do I know that?  Because the people who listen to my songs (www.NVR2L8.com) never, ever mention anything about the poor mixing, singing, or sound-quality.  It's too funny, 'cause I can hear every error.  Every one.  And I can fix 'em, too.  Every one.  But the bottom line is that I just don't want to take the time and effort to do so.  It's always a compromise. . . we can try to make one painting perfect. . . or many paintings with flaws.  The former might earn immortality, but is always futile in the end.  There is no perfection this side of heaven.

Again, I sincerely appreciated the break in pricing that Sergio offered me this past spring.  It was a wonderful gesture on his part.  It just turned out that with the change in my project, it would never have worked to try to hire him.  With any luck, I'll have a lot more money for the next film. 

:-)

Stephen

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Heaven is a relative term. I hate to tell this, but I just wrote a check for almost $900 which represents about 6 weeks of heating oil. Maybe my kids need braces on their teeth, I need a prostate operation or to pay my health insurance. Whatever....

Why spend the time fixing things you can get right the first time?

Simple question, but how much is your time worth?

JG

Do I think we're getting sound as good as we could if we used the best audio recordists?  Absolutely not!  But I'm also certain that most people sitting in theaters will never be able to tell the difference.  How do I know that?  Because the people who listen to my songs (www.NVR2L8.com) never, ever mention anything about the poor mixing, singing, or sound-quality.  It's too funny, 'cause I can hear every error.  Every one.  And I can fix 'em, too.  Every one.  But the bottom line is that I just don't want to take the time and effort to do so.  It's always a compromise. . . we can try to make one painting perfect. . . or many paintings with flaws.  The former might earn immortality, but is always futile in the end.  There is no perfection this side of heaven.

Again, I sincerely appreciated the break in pricing that Sergio offered me this past spring.  It was a wonderful gesture on his part.  It just turned out that with the change in my project, it would never have worked to try to hire him.  With any luck, I'll have a lot more money for the next film. 

:-)

Stephen

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How much is my time worth???  That's a great question!  When it comes to consulting with companies on matters great and small, it varies, but is usually in the neighborhood of $2000 a day.  That's work.

But when it comes to my hobbies, it's almost valueless.  I'm certain I've spent well over 3000 hours on my CD so far, and it's only 3/4 finished.  Figure 4000 hours total.  That would make my CD worth $1,000,000.  But you know the funny thing?  If you offered me the chance to have $1,000,000 in cash, or my CD, I'd take the CD hands down.  That's a dream.

Funny how different perspectives make for different outcomes.  It's a great problem in economics. . . "non-transitivity of preferences" is what we call it there.  But it's what makes us human.

Stephen

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this was something I added to my first post back at the beginning of this topic,  in case it was missed...

from HDVideoPro, June '008:

" an interview with Marc Vanocur, Sr. VP. at Technicolor; asked for his advice to producers and directors on how to improve the sound that they end up with he says:"One job not done properly in production can take eight jobs in post to fix ... It's also important to hire the best production sound mixer you can; in the long run it will cost you less money in fixes" "

whoa!! this just in:

When Dr. Pruitt works, at his profession, he wants and gets $2k/day! (and if he gets that, his professional services must be worth that!)

but when people practice their profession in service to him, for his hobby, and his dream, it is barely minimum wage, or even for free...

now am I to understand that is "Christian values".  of course he did pay for the REDs and other toys!! but if he can command that much for his professional services, and can afford to spend that much for toys for his hobby, someone might think he either undervalues his crew, just wants to exploit them, or both...

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Sorry, I'm not a hobbyist. I make my living saving you money. For the last 23 or so years, if you want to know, so I'll bow to your expertise.

Are you making films as a hobby?

Economics do dictate that you will get what you pay for.

This (Jeff's) site is for professional location and post sound folks, after all. I do not mean to speak for our host and beg Jeff's indulgence on this question.

JG

How much is my time worth???  That's a great question!  When it comes to consulting with companies on matters great and small, it varies, but is usually in the neighborhood of $2000 a day.  That's work.

But when it comes to my hobbies, it's almost valueless.  I'm certain I've spent well over 3000 hours on my CD so far, and it's only 3/4 finished.  Figure 4000 hours total.  That would make my CD worth $1,000,000.  But you know the funny thing?  If you offered me the chance to have $1,000,000 in cash, or my CD, I'd take the CD hands down.  That's a dream.

Funny how different perspectives make for different outcomes.  It's a great problem in economics. . . "non-transitivity of preferences" is what we call it there.  But it's what makes us human.

Stephen

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I am certainly fine to leave this forum to the professionals. . . but I would hope that the pros would at least like to keep the facts straight.

Again, I would be more than happy to post some unedited samples on my site and see if any of you can guess which ones were pulled from the 788T and which ones came from the RED.  I'm guessing that no one will be able to do so with better than 50% accuracy.

Stephen

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"I am certainly fine to leave this forum to the professionals. . . but I would hope that the pros would at least like to keep the facts straight."

Okay, you have set the record straight, that's fine and thank you for that. Everything else as far as your way of working, your attitude towards who gets paid and so forth, is not so interesting for us here I believe.

"Again, I would be more than happy to post some unedited samples on my site and see if any of you can guess which ones were pulled from the 788T and which ones came from the RED.  I'm guessing that no one will be able to do so with better than 50% accuracy."

Since you seem to be aware that there are professional sound people here you should also be aware that any such comparison is fairly meaningless. Several of the professionals have already dome their comparisons and our conclusions are totally at odds with your post.

Regards,  your host,  Jeff Wexler

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Hey Stephen, I find this thread remarkable for many reasons, and I for one enjoy it for maybe more reasons than most here. Many of us here are very interested in what the future may hold as far as good tools are concerned. The basic rule that binds all attempts at film making is the end result. I look forward to seeing yours. BTW, thanks for asking about our projects. Mine is ahead of schedule and better than I had hoped it to be. I have one question for you if I may be so bold. How is it that you have so much time on your hands that you can invest it in this little sound-mans pub? I would think your movies would consume all your time, then some. I for one want to see some of your work. Maximum Respect.

CrewC

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All of this is pretty amazing.

First of all, I love my 416s, and although I use an MKH50 almost exclusively, a properly handled 416 sounds great and will work in almost any environment.  It's not a second rate piece of gear.

Secondly, comparing side by side the quality of your recording is irrelevant.  You're right, most people won't notice.  But people flock to watch crap in the theatres and sit in even greater numbers in front of their televisions to watch even worse crap.  You sure can fool most people most of the time, but that doesn't mean you are making good movies.

If movie making is your hobby, then do whatever you want.  Spew out more content for the general public.  I, on the other hand, work on movies as a profession.  It's my passion too.  And because of that, I will always strive for better than good enough to fool the layman.  I want it to be good enough to make me happy and good enough for my film making peers to appreciate.

Robert

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We are always running a double system, running lines to both the 788T and the RED.  However, in side-by-side audio comparisons, we simply cannot hear any audible differences between the audio lined-in to the RED and the audio recorded directly into the 788T itself.  Of course, there must be differences, since we are talking about a second pass through AD/DA converters, but we honestly can't hear it. 

This surprises me. Everybody who has worked with the RED has said the audio in is OK, but not great.

I have no experience with the RED, so all my info comes from others, but you are the first person who has stated it sounded as good as the double-system audio.

Stephen, when you guys get your samples/trailers up, I (and others I'm sure) would be very interested in hearing some of the raw files. Could you setup a very short piece that has both? I think many of us would love to compare these.

I'm going to venture into an area that I'm sure might not sit well with some of you, but as Stephen has pointed out, things are changing. The way pictures are made are changing and those changes are not always good for everybody. As the original thread pointed out, many of us here have been taken advantage of, which has lead many to be very cynical of low/ultra-low budget films (not to mention non-union). Many times these films are financed on little more than what the director can scrounge from a limited investor pool, sometimes this is no more than his checking account. As many of these productions find, sound is the one department they usually lack experience in, so they have to pay us, and usually we're one of the few departments getting paid. It's a different world than what most people on this board are use to, but if you go into the Who Am I Today thread, you'll find there are a couple of us who venture into this world. Many times we work on productions that simple couldn't be made without realizing that there is something else driving these films to be made other than money. Sometimes it's the art, sometimes it's the message, sometimes both, and while the dream of the producer/director is to sell it to a larger audience, many times that just won't happen. However, that doesn't automatically make the production crap. Many times these films simply won't make it to the big screen. Although many find their way onto DVD and into many homes. Sometimes even production mistakes will go unnoticed by the audience -- my daughter for example could care less that the boom was very visible in three scenes of Rigoletto, a recent film we watched on DVD, it was the story that she liked and the rest of the production was very good.

Finally I'll say this, working on low budget productions allows me to enjoy my job as a sound recordist. Why? Because I'm valued by everybody there, all the way down from the director to the lowly P.A. The sound department is treated with respect and not treated as the enemy. That makes me enjoy my job. I've worked on a couple of large sets, and sound was important, but certainly not treated as an equal. I don't know Stephen, and I don't necessarily agree with everything he did, but I can tell simply by the way he has been sticking up for his crew that he treated them well and with respect. I think if nothing else, we should applaud him for doing so. That as many of you know is rare in this business. Yes, Sergio didn't get the job, but the job changed due to how the production had to change, Stephen had a product he wanted made, he did what he thought he had to do to make that product. I'm actually a bit disturbed but the reactions here. I thought part of the reason we use this board is to learn, seems the minute things are done contrary to the "Hollywood" way, people automatically think it must be crap (and lord forbid that product have a Christian theme in it).

If it seems that I'm a bit PO'd, I am. More because of how negative this thread has turned.

Wayne

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My only problem here is that it seems someone with no experience is telling us that what he is doing is as good as what he would get if he hired someone with experience.  What is his frame of reference?  I worked on a self-financed film a couple of years ago, and I was indeed one of the only paid departments, but the director felt she was capturing genius.  She hired her sister as the DP, a friend as the camera operator, one "electrician" to turn on the lights, and no grips.  Another friend was the first AD, etc.  It was pure arrogance on her part that since she was a doctor (M.D.), she felt that if "movie people" could make a film, then as a doctor she could certainly do it too.  The end result was HORRENDOUS!

I have no problem with people seeking to make their dream, and I know that many times corners need to be cut.  But not anyone with an expensive camera and sound equipment can make something look as good and sound as good as an experienced crew of film makers.  It's an insult to any professional to imply that owning the tools is all it takes.

Robert

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