macrecorder Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Sorry guys if I was a bit prickly about being told it was my fault. In the end, it was some kind of glitch, who knows what - the problem was solved the day after, it was just an inconvenience. It hasn't happened since, so it is a rare event. However, that is not really my point - stuff happens. The issue is more to do with the ability to check the mirror partition on the machine, since it is not always convenient to have a computer around. Since the information is there, it just seems perverse to me, that we are forbidden to see it. It is always good, obviously, to check what you are handing over, especially if it is the only copy. The wider point of this discussion is regarding the one card v. two card solutions of the Maxx and 633, and it is in that context that I wanted to chuck my 2c in. The Maxx has MARF, the 633 has 2 slots - you can make your own mind up about which is preferrable. For me, the integrity of recording straight to WAV has never been an issue, on any machine, so MARF is not a top priority for me. Ability of handing over stuff you know is there, plus the ability to keep a copy, is a big plus point - and the possibility of generating TC mp3 files without going to computer is also very attractive. In the end, there is not a lot between the machines, but the media issues are probably one of the most practical differences. Just my experiences and opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 "In the end, there is not a lot between the machines," I would respectfully differ on this point. There are many physical and feature differences between the machines. If I were to sell you one of 2 mic preamps, one having dynamic range of 114dB with fixed point processing or I was to offer you a preamp that had 136 dB dynamic range with floating point processing. I think I know the one that would be selected every time. In our world the audio that we record has a much greater dynamic range than is typically available on any portable recording system. MAXX and Nomad were designed to eliminate this limitation as well as the limiter distortion that destroys the natural sound that we are trying to capture. This is the difference between a live experence and listening to something that you know has been recorded with limitations. As I have said previously in the end recorded sound is the only thing you or I will be judged by. We provide the tools the rest is up to you. But please do not think MAXX is the same as other recorders we worked too hard to step it up. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 (edited) Dr. Glen: " in the end recorded sound is the only thing you or I will be judged by. " While I appreciate your point here, I beg to differ... one of my Senatorium's is that it isn't about the arrows, it is about the archer, and when it comes to our reputations, there is a lot more involved than just our arrows, or only the good sound we record. -- sent from one of my personal computing devices, using a web browsing program can you tell which ?? Edited March 7, 2014 by studiomprd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Actually, the "only" thing I've not heard from a client so far is a request for me to provide 136db dynamic range sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Someone who thinks their reputation as a location soundie is only about their recorded sound is deluded and won't last in the biz very long. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomBoisseau Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Very true Senator! There are plenty of guys out there that are not necessarily "excellent" at what they do, nonetheless they work all the time because they are likeable and easy to work with. Of course I'm not sure that applies to any of us sound guys! Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomboom Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Well, looks like some guys dared to compare (oh sacrilege!) the maxx to "the" other recording device (won't mention the name here under pain of being lectured) ... But, well, these guys probably missed the point ... YMMV, archer/arrows, yaddi-yadda... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Dr. Glen: " in the end recorded sound is the only thing you or I will be judged by. " While I appreciate your point here, I beg to differ... one of my Senatorium's is that it isn't about the arrows, it is about the archer, and when it comes to our reputations, there is a lot more involved than just our arrows, or only the good sound we record. I agree, the end product is not the ONLY important thing, but, I would say that the inverse, not delivering good sound, will definitely not get you hired again. So, to that end, I think Glenn's point is that Zaxcom is attempting to provide us with the means to attain such end results, which would only help us, not hinder us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenn Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 My point was that someone at home listening to the audio only has that to go by. Not that the audio is the only factor in what a sound mixer does. Far from it. I think there is so much that goes into a recording the recorder is only one component. Glenn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 7, 2014 Report Share Posted March 7, 2014 Jose: " the inverse, not delivering good sound, will definitely not get you hired again. " I'd rephrase it: the inverse, delivering poor sound, will definitely not get you hired again. (assuming conditions and expectations were reasonable... I worked (frequently) for a director who always wanted "adequate" results, and often told me my work was "highly adequate"; he preferred consistently adequate to peaks and valleys of great, and OK... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 "In the end, there is not a lot between the machines," I would respectfully differ on this point. There are many physical and feature differences between the machines. If I were to sell you one of 2 mic preamps, one having dynamic range of 114dB with fixed point processing or I was to offer you a preamp that had 136 dB dynamic range with floating point processing. I think I know the one that would be selected every time. In our world the audio that we record has a much greater dynamic range than is typically available on any portable recording system. MAXX and Nomad were designed to eliminate this limitation as well as the limiter distortion that destroys the natural sound that we are trying to capture. This is the difference between a live experence and listening to something that you know has been recorded with limitations. Glenn And yet I have heard of two or three people who bought the inferior 633 instead of the Maxx, which apparently is not just superior, it's perfect. Maybe there's more to it than dynamic range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 Actually, the "only" thing I've not heard from a client so far is a request for me to provide 136db dynamic range sound. You might want to remind them that that crosses into the threshold of pain: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted March 8, 2014 Report Share Posted March 8, 2014 You might want to remind them that that crosses into the threshold of pain: If the request ever becomes a priority, I surely will ha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonetripper Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I was using my 788T on Defiance this year and post had a few glitches w the CF transfer of dailies. The files had come out sounding like someone was plugging a guitar into a live amp. We were in full shooting mode at the time and I had to check in the midst of the shooting day to isolate. The DMT said his 40 dollar card reader had done the checksum and believed him. I had then, unfairly concluded, that I had a corrupt card since the files on the 788 were exactly as recorded. ( I did have trouble reading it with my card reader via computer ) Sonic perfection of fans with a snow machine. . Ha anyway the hard drive saved me. It happened two more times and then started checking the other cards finding out that it wasn't the card after all but the lousy reader the DMT was using which he promptly replaced with a more high quality reader. Saying all this I would consider the 633 or the maxx to be more over the shoulder style recorders IMHO whereby I would probably still record wirelessly or whathaveyou to the camera. I think it hugely important to have a hard disk recording. Flash cards and especially SD cards are bound to be prone to occasional issues. In a digital world redundancy is just a proper business decision I think it more difficult to tell a producer that there was an issue with a 60 dollar card. Of course I'm speaking in a more cart based environment. Albeit I've been an SD user for sometime now and although there are some excellent features with the maxx, I like that sound devices has created two mediums to record simultaneously on. For a secondary or backup recording or in the bag in another country it would provide piece of mind. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadoStefanov Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I was using my 788T on Defiance this year and post had a few glitches w the CF transfer of dailies. The files had come out sounding like someone was plugging a guitar into a live amp. We were in full shooting mode at the time and I had to check in the midst of the shooting day to isolate. The DMT said his 40 dollar card reader had done the checksum and believed him. I had then, unfairly concluded, that I had a corrupt card since the files on the 788 were exactly as recorded. ( I did have trouble reading it with my card reader via computer ) Sonic perfection of fans with a snow machine. . Ha anyway the hard drive saved me. It happened two more times and then started checking the other cards finding out that it wasn't the card after all but the lousy reader the DMT was using which he promptly replaced with a more high quality reader. Saying all this I would consider the 633 or the maxx to be more over the shoulder style recorders IMHO whereby I would probably still record wirelessly or whathaveyou to the camera. I think it hugely important to have a hard disk recording. Flash cards and especially SD cards are bound to be prone to occasional issues. In a digital world redundancy is just a proper business decision I think it more difficult to tell a producer that there was an issue with a 60 dollar card. Of course I'm speaking in a more cart based environment. Albeit I've been an SD user for sometime now and although there are some excellent features with the maxx, I like that sound devices has created two mediums to record simultaneously on. For a secondary or backup recording or in the bag in another country it would provide piece of mind. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk CF cards are a lot more reliable then HDD or SSD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Someone should do a scientific test where they attempt to nuke the MARF completely without deliberately formatting the card. Probably would alleviate a lot of the concerns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 It sounds really weird to me that a cheap CF Card reader would actually change to sound of a recording Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Norflus Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 Someone should do a scientific test where they attempt to nuke the MARF completely without deliberately formatting the card. Probably would alleviate a lot of the concerns.There have been many real work situation where all sorts of bad things were accidentially done to the card and as far as I know MARF came through unscathed every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 CF cards are a lot more reliable then HDD or SSDthat surprises me, given that technically CF-cards and SSDs are very similar. Have you got any data to back that up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 marc: " You might want to remind them that that crosses into the threshold of pain: " dynamic range of sound volume (SPL) is a different scale: dBspl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I beg to differ... one of my Senatorium's is that it isn't about the arrows, it is about the archer And I beg to differ... OT of course, but still an important point IMO: It is very much about the arrows AND the archer. A good sound mixer with crappy equipment won't deliver excellent audio. A bad mixer with good equipment will likely get better audio than a bad mixer with bad equipment. Time to re-write the Senatorium's...? Our job is much too complicated to be compared with an archer. Aside from that, both Maxx and 633 are very good arrows, and with any of these two a good mixer will be able to provide excellent audio, be it with 114 or 136 dB of dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Futterman Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 There have been many real work situation where all sorts of bad things were accidentially done to the card and as far as I know MARF came through unscathed every time. I have no doubt of this. Maybe I will make an effort myself to see how bad I can nuke it. The only way I could think of would be to wreck the card entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 that surprises me, given that technically CF-cards and SSDs are very similar. Have you got any data to back that up? Since both CF cards and SSDs are flash media, they are both theoretically the same. Flash media (CF, SD, HDD) is certainly superior to moving-parts drives (HDD), which are more susceptible to failure. However, between CF and SSDs, I would say that in practicality, SSDs are more reliable (in this case) because you are not constantly removing them from your recorder and inserting them to a reader, and vice-versa, where they can get damaged by bent pins, or get lost. These are, obviously, human errors. The CF and SSD are otherwise identical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeheel Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 Intriguingly, I had my 633 beep and throw a "SD card Unknown error" while recording yesterday. This happened on 2 takes before I could yank the card and replace it with another. It was a 64gb Lexar 400X SD card recording poly waves (approved card) and I had used it before, successfully. I played back the suspect takes from the CF card during a lull in the shooting and they were fine, so I started breathing again. During a shoot last year, on my 744T, I once had the hard drive do a "slow media error" because it was too full. Unfortunately on the 744t "slow media" on the HDD also screwed up the CF files, so the "redundancy" factor was not actually useful. When I checked the 633's problem SD card, the first take was in the directory but could not be read, the second file didn't appear at all. The CF card showed all the files and they were fine. The rest of the days SD files on my second SD card were all fine as well, so hopefully the issue is confined to that first problem card... It seems like the 633 has the system dialed better than the 744t, in that an error on one medium while recording does NOT affect the other one. Yesterday I was quite happy to be saving to 2 separate media. Cheers, Brent Calkin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_bollard Posted March 13, 2014 Report Share Posted March 13, 2014 CF cards are a lot more reliable then HDD or SSD If this is the case why do I, and other users, get infrequent card read or I/O errors and almost never hdd errors? With my 788 if something goes weird my first port in trouble shooting is remove the CF card; these are SD approved media Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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