Jatb51 Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 hello, quick question, I'm working a couple of days pickups on a feature - have been told that the mix handed in for dailies is split tracks boom L, wires R, isos to be recorded too. Just to clarify I mix as normal - i.e. listen in mono and create a mix as if handing in a straight mono mix, and if I don't use wires then the wire track has nothing.. or is it expected that I'm delivering the wires no matter what on the wireless track even if boom track best..? thanks for your help in advance. Best J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Honestly, i don't see how we can answer the question of what your production expects. Every workflow is different, so you may want to ask the existing production mixer or their post supervisor, our whomever is recommending the split mix. Boom on left, lavs on right, plus iso's sounds pretty clear though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 And I would assume the L & R mix is actually mixed, and the mics are only up when you need them. The rest of the time, everything has dedicated pre-fader isos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 It's a weird narrative workflow. You best ask the mixer who did the rest of it. If I were asked to do this, I'd first try to talk them out of it. It's difficult to monitor on set and neither mix track is a real mix, insuring everything will need to be remixed. If ISOs are being delivered, I don't get the need for split track mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 A mono or 2 track mix (your interpretation of the shot) plus iso's of all mic's used is the right way IMO. Of course if this gets you fired then it is the wrong advice.;~) CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthias Richter Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 thats how I do 2 track too. Pretend, mix and listen as if you are doing mono but send Boom to the left and radios to the right. If you are fine with Boom only just have nothing on RM-mix or even disarm it. That's when you are pretty sure to not need any radios for a single line somewhere in the scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 J51: " Just to clarify I mix as normal ..." WHY are you asking us ?? first of all, we don't know what your "normal" is, and we also have no further clue as to what this production wants and expects... ASK THEM! marc: " And I would assume... " bad move, I would assume nothing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jatb51 Posted May 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 Thankyou, appreciate the replies. Not used to the mix split track workflow, just wanted to get some knowledge b4 asking questions. I will indeed ask and assume nothing,thanks.J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 19, 2014 Report Share Posted May 19, 2014 We've debated this endlessly, split track vs mono dailies mix. The answer is what do the people signing your check want? philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 It's a weird narrative workflow. You best ask the mixer who did the rest of it. If I were asked to do this, I'd first try to talk them out of it. It's difficult to monitor on set and neither mix track is a real mix, insuring everything will need to be remixed. If ISOs are being delivered, I don't get the need for split track mix. You can save on post if done correctly. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jatb51 Posted May 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 How are you saving on post? And what is correcty? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted May 22, 2014 Report Share Posted May 22, 2014 How are you saving on post? And what is correcty? Thanks! Dialogue is already mixed---pick either boom or wireless mix---think "old school" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Us older "mixers" for earlier days became used to mixing a boom and several radio mikes to one track, and when DAT came along we mixed to two tracks. With wireless I would put the actor with the most dialogue one one track then mix the rest to the other track. Nowadays with the pressure of time and perhaps lack of rehearsals mixing is made harder so I guess a good effort mix to one or two tracks is OK if backed up by ISO tracks. mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 Dialogue is already mixed---pick either boom or wireless mix---think "old school" I don't quite get it. Why would keeping the boom on one track, and everything else on another mix track, be an advantage over a properly done mono mix incorporating boom, plants, and lavs as needed? That's what I think is "old school". I can only see the assistant editor thinking it was a stereo mix, panning the boom left and the lavs right, then calling the producer about the sound guy having f*ked up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted May 24, 2014 Report Share Posted May 24, 2014 I don't quite get it. Why would keeping the boom on one track, and everything else on another mix track, be an advantage over a properly done mono mix incorporating boom, plants, and lavs as needed? That's what I think is "old school". I can only see the assistant editor thinking it was a stereo mix, panning the boom left and the lavs right, then calling the producer about the sound guy having f*ked up. explain on sound report----yes, what you say can happen----the reason is we used to mix to one track but with the advent of stereo DAT machines,the use of two tracks makes it less dangerous and more usable-----the boom sometimes is just getting sound effects,like doing dialogue around a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jatb51 Posted May 25, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2014 just finished the job and I thought it was pretty useful having the mix track split - I even split the booms with one getting sound effects and the other on dialogue when not using wires. I can see how on a smaller budget project it could be really useful and done well may save some time and money and give you more part of the final mix as oppose to someone remixing the isos. But having said that, if post is just going straight to the isos then perhaps not much point, you're really just mixing for dailies, and the editor - I favor the mono mix, but as always got to keep the client happy - whatever they want.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted May 25, 2014 Report Share Posted May 25, 2014 j51: " I thought it was pretty useful having the mix track split " so..? and then "they" just do a hard L+R mix of your carefully split trax and..?? " whatever they want.. " " give you more part of the final mix " getting good dialog the way "they" want it is my job, and in (by) itself gives me plenty of a part of the final mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted May 26, 2014 Report Share Posted May 26, 2014 explain on sound report----yes, what you say can happen----the reason is we used to mix to one track but with the advent of stereo DAT machines,the use of two tracks makes it less dangerous and more usable-----the boom sometimes is just getting sound effects,like doing dialogue around a car. IME those who actually read the report will also be smart enough to not frantically call a producer if they don't understand what's on which track. They will understand by reading the report, and if not, they will call the soundie first. I can see the advantage of having a mix without boom in that "sound effects gathering" scenario when dialogue comes from lavs only. However this isn't the most common scenario in most shoots, and I certainly wouldn't sacrifice a well-established workflow for such an exception. We can - using isos anyway - safely leave the boom out of our location mix track in such a situation. Can't imagine listening to a split mix with boom in my left ear and everything else in my right ear. So I'd sum to mono for the phones (and comteks, and camera hops, and video village link) anyway. more part of the final mix as oppose to someone remixing the isos. But having said that, if post is just going straight to the isos then perhaps not much point, you're really just mixing for dailies, and the editor - I favor the mono mix, but as always got to keep the client happy - whatever they want.. One of the jobs I did last year specified they would only need the isos because they'd remix everything anyway, but if I wanted to, I could record the comtek mix. So I did mix+isos as usual. What they used in the final mix was - of course - that "comtek" mix. Turns out they had never before heard location sound that was actually mixed. At least they saw that the mix saved them lots of post work and money. It gets bad when a "producer" says, "anybody can wire the actors and hit record, why are you so expensive?". Point is: client doesn't always know what makes them happy. I tend to ask twice if they require something non-standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted May 26, 2014 Report Share Posted May 26, 2014 IME those who actually read the report will also be smart enough to not frantically call a producer if they don't understand what's on which track. They will understand by reading the report, and if not, they will call the soundie first. I can see the advantage of having a mix without boom in that "sound effects gathering" scenario when dialogue comes from lavs only. However this isn't the most common scenario in most shoots, and I certainly wouldn't sacrifice a well-established workflow for such an exception. We can - using isos anyway - safely leave the boom out of our location mix track in such a situation. Can't imagine listening to a split mix with boom in my left ear and everything else in my right ear. So I'd sum to mono for the phones (and comteks, and camera hops, and video village link) anyway. One of the jobs I did last year specified they would only need the isos because they'd remix everything anyway, but if I wanted to, I could record the comtek mix. So I did mix+isos as usual. What they used in the final mix was - of course - that "comtek" mix. Turns out they had never before heard location sound that was actually mixed. At least they saw that the mix saved them lots of post work and money. It gets bad when a "producer" says, "anybody can wire the actors and hit record, why are you so expensive?". Point is: client doesn't always know what makes them happy. I tend to ask twice if they require something non-standard. The difference between "new school" and "old school" is I look at isos as safety back-up trks. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 What doesn't seem to work in this splits mix scenario with the boom on one track and mixed wires on the other is that if the boom sounds good then most of us would NOT mix in the wires. So there would be nothing on the wire mix track for this. The iso's would still be there to use if needed but this wouldn't seem to me to be any faster. Then say on another setup I mix the wires and a boom for a shot. The folks down the line still have no mono mix of the scene unless they sum the 2 mix tracks together which adds an extra step. Cumbersome, and more likely than not the dailies would have a hard pan of boom on one side and wire mix on the other. I've never understood how the split mix helps more than a mix and iso's version ever could. No one has ever illustrated how it works better to me other than to say this is how I like it dating back to the DAT or beta cam era. But... if that's what they want, that's what they get. Fortunately I haven't been asked to see something like this through so far. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 I agree Scott. I've never been asked for this before or after a shoot. These days with all our ISO's no need for a 2 track split if there ever was IMO. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrd456 Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Many times the boom is used to get FX and the wireless gets the dialogue, like shooting actors talking inside a car thru the windshield and then the car pulls away or door slams or ect. J.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Well dudes, I get asked for that split on nearly every shoot, esp if I'm feeding 2 tracks of a camera in addition to recording isos. Re having the splits be an extra step to sum to mono, it isn't an extra step, the editing system sums the two channels automatically or not as the editor pleases--it's no extra work or time at all. Editors often appreciate having the boom/lav mix split when they are trying to bang together a quick version for approval, without having to mess with the isos at that point. Later on they might dump the split mix and go to the isos for the finish, but they are often under huge time pressure to deliver temp cuts and often tell me the appreciate the flexibility the split gives them. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
berniebeaudry Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 Splits give the editor more flexibility as Phillip notes. Very important in a quick turnaround situation where there isn't a lot of time to remix from isos but tweaking is necessary to perfect the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
studiomprd Posted July 24, 2014 Report Share Posted July 24, 2014 IOW: it depends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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