Stereo mic - Soundman.de

[Patrick Tresch]

Hello,

 

I'm interested to add to my sound kit a stereo microphone to have some nice atmo...

 

I've been thinking of using a MS (Schoeps) couple or Ortf assembly but it's out of my budget and not compatible with the way we shoot the documentry. Mainly a two man band (director making the sound and dop having the stereo mic on board). For stereo consistency we will also make some atmo for every setup, as camera movement can disturb the stereo "field".

 

We where thinking of a camera mounted mic (we shoot Blackmagic pocket camera or 5DMKIII) but this looks too flimsy. (?)

 

I friend of mine has used the Soundman mic with great results and is really convinced it could be the winner for our setup...

 

Now I would like to hear from you. Have you used the Soundman system? Where you happy with it? What are the con in a documentry style of shooting.

 

Thanks a lot.

 

Patrick

 

 

PS: we will record on a Sonosax SX-R4

[studiomprd]

Patrick: " Now I would like to hear from you. Have you used the Soundman system? Where you happy with it? What are the con in a documentry style of shooting. "

although there have been previous discussions of stereo mic-ing and stereo mic's...

no, n/a, cannot think of any.

 

you are a bit of an oxymoron, using a top drawer Sonosax, but then wanting to couple it with toys.

frankly, I don't think you need the Sonosax!

it will not make the toys any better... you will not be able to discern any difference if you used a Tascam hh recorder (as shown in the "soundman" ad) OTOH, I'm betting you will not be able to discern a significant difference if, if any, should you actually try a Schoeps which you say you cannot afford...

go ahead, you have our per mission, try the alternatives, and have fun!

[Patrick Tresch]

You'r probably right Mike but my friend used it for last Godard's movie released for theater, so I was wondering if it could be decently used for my docu? ;-)

So I must read that you where dissapointed when you used it?

 

Pat

 

Ps: thanks for the Oxy ;-)

[stefanosound]

give a look here

 

http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/mce-72-pv-cam.html

[pkautzsch]

I'd go for a MS setup with a short shotgun M. Thinking along the lines of AudioTechnica BP4029 or Sennheiser MKH418S. There is a cheap far-east made sibling too, called Superlux E525S.

That way you have the option of clean M shotgun sound (which, in documentary shooting, can save the soundie's ass, sometimes being the mic closest to someone speaking) and can control stereo width in post.

The downside is that mic's length compared to a DSLR. Such a setup works only if that DSLR is in some shoulder rig - especially when you're outdoors and using a "softie" type wind protection.

 

However, It Depends on what you are after. If you're sure you don't need any dialogue from the cam-mounted mic, you might go for less directional solutions.

 

Don't think too much about stereo image shifting when the camera moves. You wrote that you will record wild atmospheres too, and probably these are what ends up L/R. The (moving) cam mic's tracks have a good chance of being panned dead center by your audio post production team, because they will usually contain either dialogue or hard FX.

[studiomprd]

Patrick: " so I was wondering if it could be decently used for my docu? ;-) "

of course...

and it isn't about the arrows...

[Christian Spaeth]

the soundman mic is a nice little gimmick, I own it and have used it, and though it is not a top quality mic, for ambience it will be just fine. The special thing about it is that if you listen to the recordings made with it on headphones the immersion blows you away, however on speakers it's just a regular stereo mic. If original set ambience is not the most important sonic ingredient of your docu, and it seldom is, the mic is a nice addition to your kit, but you should have another option (could just be a handheld stereo recorder like a Tascam or Olympus LS). If the DP doesn't mind he can even wear the Soundman mic, plugging it in to the cam. You need to wear a wool hat or something that covers your ears when shooting outside though.

[Patrick Tresch]

give a look here

 

http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/shop/mce-72-pv-cam.html

Interesting thanks for the link

 

Pat

[Constantin]

Also, if you want to get a half-decent stereo recording out of these mics, the wearer must not move their head when recording. That can be a bit restricting at times

[jpbat]

I remember this one, I bought it 20 years ago, to discover very fast that putting a mic in each ear is not a very good idea (Constantin explained it very clearly above : if you move, so moves the stereo field, and this is not pretty).

It was paired at the time with one of those mini DAT from Sony (probably the D5) and it has been useful sometimes when travelling extra light far from civilization. This was about the smallest half-decent stereo rig available at the time.

High level of hiss. Not exactly top notch gear.

It's in a drawer somewhere.

[The Immoral Mr Teas]

 

That way you have the option of clean M shotgun sound 

 

 

Sonosax R4 - 4 lovely, matched, gangable preamps. Stick with a centre (mono) directed feed, presumably the mic you're already using. As for stereo, are you doing radio, television or film? Does it need to be mono compatible? If not, there's little point in using MS, and there's little point in recording binaural in either case. Use three of your four channels - one for the mono central image and two others for either an additional/alternative LR stereo or together with the C as part of a LCR spread (though only as a fixed position atmos/fx setup, not a 'stereo' component to a swinging boom).

 

As Mike says, you're using an expensive quality recorder - why skimp on mics? And if you buy two quality cardioid or hyper mics (schoeps CCM, Sennheiser 80 series, DPA ... or various cheaper alternatives) you need not be restricted to an ORTF setup with them - choose your recording angle depending on the situation. Have a look at The Stereophonic Zoom by Michael Williams and his multichannel papers to see what ORTF and other standard stereo and surround mic setups are achieving - I would recommend two cardioids, a K&M stereo bar and some experimentation with a rycote, but two hypers (or one more if you are already using one) could get you similar results to capture 2 channel stereo recording angles if you prefer to go that way.

 

And if you decide to record some binaural stuff then by all means try out the soundman, but it wouldn't be my first choice for stereo recording into that beautiful recorder.

 

By the way, just picked up an ex library copy of Richard Brody's Godard bio, Everything Is Cinema, today - looking forward to ploughing through its 700 pages but interesting that only two chapters (75 of those pages) deal with perhaps my 'favourite period', the 1970s - so no "British Sounds" ....

 

Jez Adamson

[daniel]

Soundman capsules are fine (certainly when used with the line level XLR adapter (without base cut applied)) . I did a test with a post production friend using his SD744, DPA4060s and his DAW (protools, genelecs etc) to evaluate the differences. To our cloth ears and beer goggle eyes there was nothing to make you choose 1 over the other.

 

How you use them in the field and post is another matter - the rubber neck blues could be avoided with a dummy head for example.

 

dan.

[daniel]

PS.If you're not getting paid to record stereo atmos etc (while you record dialogue) but want to give something to post on your spare tracks why carry round an large and expensive MS or ORTF set up (which you may also struggle to find time to deploy) as well as your more important dialogue boom options?

 

dan

[Constantin]

I think if you're a one-man-band, MS is the way to go as it'll fit in one standard Rycote and you have it always with you. Contrary to what Daniel wrote I find the MS setup very easy and quick to deploy. In fact, on doco shoots I always have it in my zep, so I can record dialogue with the shotgun. Then recording a stereo atmos is as easy as awitching on a secondinput on my recorder.

However in your suggested situation as an on-cam mount, it's less useful. I would simply get the best stereo mic you can find and afford.

[chris_bollard]

I agree that MS is a convenient solution - but not really found a figure8 mic that I'm really happy with

[Constantin]

You don't like the Schoeps CCM8?

[daniel]

Constantin I agree it's not hard to hold a pole with an ms set up for a few minutes between takes but if you want a sync stereo 'atmos' you'll need a swivel between pole and suspension and modify your booming technique, aside from a bigger zepplin and more weight on the pole.

[chris_bollard]

The CCM8 is great- but $2,500 for occasional stereo fx at no extra charge, I think not

[John Blankenship]

The Rode NT-4 is a decent choice for an X-Y mic that is only needed on an infrequent basis. It uses a pair of the same capsules as the Rode NT-5 cardioid and can be powered from either phantom power or an internal 9-volt battery.

I've also done an X-Y configuration with two Scheops inside a standard Rycote Zeppelin. Use of the versatile K-Tek Suspenders made rigging pretty simple.

[Christian Spaeth]

Possibly interesting too. Superlux e524, looks like a rode nt4 knock off, surely sounds good.

Superlux s502 is an ortf mic. Two of these somehow stuck together and put in a basket would be an awesome ortf surround mic on the cheap. And as for the soundman mic, there is one mic like this made by roland that allows you to monitor your recodings, which is something really useful that the Soundman doesn't do.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/687077-REG/Roland_CS_10EM_CS_10EM_Binaural_Microphones_Earphones.html

And finally, you could use a handheld recorder with good built in mics. i use the Olympus LS-10.

[Armin Siegwarth]

I do docu as well a Lot.

The soundman mics have the windproblem and are a Bit hissy as well. And you can't Monitor while having them in your ear.

So I went through some stereorecorders for atmos

tascam dr-40 - a Bit too much hiss, mics average

Sony pcm-d 10 - no hiss, very sensitive but too dull for the Mix

Sony pcm d 50 - finally Good Stereo mics but Wind sensitive - needs a " windjacket" and is now my quick Stereo Solution

http://thewindcutter.com/shop/index.php?route=product/category&path=179

For a bigger Doc i tested rode Nt-4 vs audio technica bp 4025 and the 4025 won by far. More Bass and much better left right Separation. Very sensitive - no hiss in quiet places. Needs a blimp and lowcut at 80hz for on the move. Made me smile a few times.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/602082-REG/Audio_Technica_BP4025_BP4025_X_Y_Stereo_Field.htmlhttp://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/602082-REG/Audio_Technica_BP4025_BP4025_X_Y_Stereo_Field.html

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[Philip Perkins]

If you already own Schoeps mics (2) and a Zep you can do a homemade XY pair very easily by hotrodding the mic mounts to take two mic bodies taped together, with one of them also having a GVC swivel.  You learn to point the zep slightly "off" to hit the center of the XY pair.  This worked very well for us where we needed to hire people to do stereo ambiances who weren't going to pony up for a full on stereo mic of that quality, but had 2 Schoeps already for their regular dialog work.  The sound was great.

 

philp

[John Blankenship]

If you already own Schoeps mics (2) and a Zep you can do a homemade XY pair very easily by hotrodding the mic mounts to take two mic bodies taped together, with one of them also having a GVC swivel.  You learn to point the zep slightly "off" to hit the center of the XY pair.  This worked very well for us where we needed to hire people to do stereo ambiances who weren't going to pony up for a full on stereo mic of that quality, but had 2 Schoeps already for their regular dialog work.  The sound was great.

 

philp

 

That's pretty much the config I was talking about a couple of days ago.  I found that the K-Tek Suspenders made "hotrodding" easy.