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"workflow" issue using different recorders


Jeff Wexler

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I am using the term "workflow" here in reference to the ways in which we need to have our "work" "flow" during typical shooting day, rather than it's normal reference to how our tracks flow through the production-post chain.

Many people are using 2 recorders on a job; in the cases I am most familiar with this would be a Deva and a Sound Devices 744T or 788T. We know that all the common recorders can make a deliverable disk, typically a DVD-RAM disk with Broadcast Wave files on it, and when using these 2 recorders it is not such a big deal to burn a disk using each machine and turn in 2 disks.

My question is, when using the SD recorder, for example, to record some portion of the day's work (because the recorder is smaller, more portable, no need to pull the Deva off the cart), it would be nice to be able to have those tracks be on the main disk (from the Deva) so that really only 1 disk needs to be turned in. It is my understanding that this is NOT possible at this time (probably the case as well if we were talking about using a Cantar and a Fostex machine or any other combination). Although the disk could be taken out of the recorder/burner that made it and put it into the other machine, I don't think we are able to do any sort of copy. Am I wrong here or CAN this be done?

I would like to hear some reaction from others who have been faced with this way of working, one machine on the cart, one machine portable doing a small portion of the day's work --- haver you found a way to have all tracks end up on the one primary machine so you can burn just 1 disk?

Regards,  Jeff Wexler

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For me, the answer is no. I turn in 2 or more dvd rams. I never thought of this as a problem. I guess you could copy the files from each folder onto the Mac and then burn one dvd for post, but it wouldn't be dvd ram. Maybe a better way would be an external drive to turn in when the project is done. Why do you ask 2 dogs mixing?

CrewC

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Jeff,

I'm with Crew on this. What you are suggesting appears to not only be more work to turn in just 1 DVD-RAM, but also a mine field of possible errors.

Would you have the time to then check your DVD-RAM that it contained the SD files and those of the Deva? To me it would be simpler to turn in 2 discs for transfer and not go through the headache.

Regards,

RL

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2 or more disks here.  My 3 NL recorders have differences in numbering systems so we rely on paper reports for the ones that don't generate PDFs themselves.  We have also lately gotten into burning more disks as we go thru the day when "going portable" to avoid the "long burn at wrap" syndrome.

Philip Perkins

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I have pulled my 744T flash card and copied files to it that were recorded by Boom Recorder, then via 744T copy function burned them to the DVD-RAM to turn in for dailies.  Not sure if you could pull a flash card directly from a Deva Fusion and copy files through the 744T menu, or vice versa.  Perhaps someone with both machine could give it a try.

Robert

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My main recorder is Metacorder. Portable recorder is a 744.  When using the 744, I record simultaneously to the HD and the CF.  When done with "portable mode", I simply remove the CF from the 744, and drag and drop the files I have recorded on the CF directly into the current Metacorder roll's folder.  Everything stays on one sound roll and, best of all, still no paper report as the files that were recorded on the 744 appear on the Metacorder sound report complete with their Metadata, exactly as if they were recorded by Metacorder.

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What you describe is another great benefit of having a true computer (laptop) based recorder as your main recorder. What people are trying to do with the various dedicated hardware recorders is to get them to engage in higher level file management and copy routines which their operating systems do not support. Someone using a Cantar and a SD recorder, or a Deva and an SD, whatever, could obviously accomplish One Disk/One Sound Roll by getting all the files into their laptop and then organizing the metadata, the different file naming schemes and then burn the one disk. The advantage you (and anyone else using Metacorder or Boom Recorder) has is that your main recorder IS the computer. It is nice to know that the SD files drop right into Metacorder --- makes for a good daily production workflow.

-  Jeff Wexler

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What you describe is another great benefit of having a true computer (laptop) based recorder as your main recorder. What people are trying to do with the various dedicated hardware recorders is to get them to engage in higher level file management and copy routines which their operating systems do not support. Someone using a Cantar and a SD recorder, or a Deva and an SD, whatever, could obviously accomplish One Disk/One Sound Roll by getting all the files into their laptop and then organizing the metadata, the different file naming schemes and then burn the one disk. The advantage you (and anyone else using Metacorder or Boom Recorder) has is that your main recorder IS the computer. It is nice to know that the SD files drop right into Metacorder --- makes for a good daily production workflow.

-  Jeff Wexler

They drop into Metacorder's record folder, and if you tell it to make the PDF for that roll after doing that they will be included in the report.  WHERE they get included in the report (re TC and take name) may not be exactly where you want, but they will be there (but without the notes etc of the Metacorder-recorded files).  We decided that it was less confusing on the sort of jobs we do to keep the recordings from the various machines separate, or our posties thought so anyhow.  When we deliver on a pocket hard disk (more and more these days) we do put all the audio on it from all the recorders.

Related question:  when will we be able to send a hard disk to telecine?  I am sick of burning DVDs.....

Philip Perkins

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Actually, the files do show up on the sound report in the exact sequence/location that you would expect them to.

All notes, and track names entered on the 744 show up correctly as well.  As a result, no one in post would even be aware of the fact that more than one recorder had been used to generate that roll.  Kudos to Sound Devices for their excellent iXML support.

Once the files are in the Metacorder sound roll folder, any notes may also be added or edited, and takes can be renamed if necessary, just as can be done with the Metacorder generated files.

They drop into Metacorder's record folder, and if you tell it to make the PDF for that roll after doing that they will be included in the report.  WHERE they get included in the report (re TC and take name) may not be exactly where you want, but they will be there (but without the notes etc of the Metacorder-recorded files).  We decided that it was less confusing on the sort of jobs we do to keep the recordings from the various machines separate, or our posties thought so anyhow.  When we deliver on a pocket hard disk (more and more these days) we do put all the audio on it from all the recorders.

Related question:  when will we be able to send a hard disk to telecine?  I am sick of burning DVDs.....

Philip Perkins

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Actually, the files do show up on the sound report in the exact sequence/location that you would expect them to.

All notes, and track names entered on the 744 show up correctly as well.  As a result, no one in post would even be aware of the fact that more than one recorder had been used to generate that roll.  Kudos to Sound Devices for their excellent iXML support.

Once the files are in the Metacorder sound roll folder, any notes may also be added or edited, and takes can be renamed if necessary, just as can be done with the Metacorder generated files.

yeah, but problem is when the TCs are in different universes, different starts etc when we use the mobile intermittently.  Our editors have wanted the 2 track 702 stuff split out from the MC recordings w/all the isos etc, they like the small rec. stuff grouped together and the MC stuff in another bucket.  I don't see the issue w/ more than one DVD, and anyhow we mostly give them HDs for MC jobs anymore since we are at 18+ tracks almost all the time.

Philip Perkins

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Our editors have wanted the 2 track 702 stuff split out from the MC recordings w/all the isos etc, they like the small rec. stuff grouped together and the MC stuff in another bucket.  I don't see the issue w/ more than one DVD, and anyhow we mostly give them HDs for MC jobs anymore since we are at 18+ tracks almost all the time.

No issue with more than 1 DVD at all.  But what you have stated here is a slightly different situation to what I believe Jeff may have been referring to, as you mention that you are complying with editorial preferences rather than keeping the files separate for technical reasons.

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No issue with more than 1 DVD at all.  But what you have stated here is a slightly different situation to what I believe Jeff may have been referring to, as you mention that you are complying with editorial preferences rather than keeping the files separate for technical reasons.

No, a file is a file, for sure, and we will transfer them to slabs of cheese if that's what post wants.  I have a little trepidation about combining all the files onto a single medium because I'm afraid I'll forget to transfer something in the heat and exhaustion of wrapping etc, but if they asked for this we'd do it. 

Philip Perkins

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All of the answers to my original question have been really helpful. My conclusion, after reading about what others have been doing, is that there is not (except under certain conditions) an easy way to use multiple machines/formats and have all of it wind up on one disk with the appearance that is was all done on the main machine. It is also my conclusion that there isn't any overriding reason to try and achieve this goal --- turning in 2 or more disks from the 2 or more machines used is not a problem and probably avoids some fairly nasty consequences.

I was speaking with Don Coufal the other day about this and we were remembering that in the old days when we went to do insert car work or something off the cart, I would often take the main sound roll (both reels) off the main Nagra and put it on the second Nagra which was portable and not on the cart. Then when we were done with the remote part I would switch back to the cart Nagra and carry on with the day's work. I guess I might have been hoping for a similar "workflow" in  the digital age but I don't think it is possible to do going from different machines (maybe not even possible if using 2 identical machines). All of this could be accomplished, of course, if we had the time for all these files from the various machines winding up in a full computer --- then we could edit metadata, organize the files, burn the disk and so forth.

One last thing I thought of which might be technically possible (but possibly foolish anyway) when using 2 identical machines. Does anyone know if the hard drive for the Deva (which is easily removable) could be pulled out and put in the second Deva, this mimicking what we used to do with the two Nagras? I am not sure where all the settings and parameters are stored (most probably on the 1st machine and NOT on the drive) so changing to the second machine could be a total nightmare of incompatible settings. Oh well, I think I have given this enough thought for the moment.

-  Jeff Wexler

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There is not very  good interchangeability between machines.  The fostex machines marry each DVD to a Hard drive partition and won't let you record again on it if they get out of sync (i.e. you have more files on the DVD than on the internal HD). You might think it would be possible to pull the CF card out of a Deva Fusion and pop it in a 744T or vice Versa.  But when I tried to put a 744T recorded CF Card in a Fusion, its only option was to Format the Card.  It wouldn't let me record additional data on the card until it formatted it .  This card was formatted as Fat 32 and could be read by any computer, but if the Deva Fusion or the 744T don't see their proprietary setup files  or specific folder structure on the CF card they assume it is blank or never formatted even if it is a perfectly valid Fat 32 card with a bunch of files in it.  I think the manufacturers need to work together to fix this interchange problem.

Because many people are recording on multiple machines or keep one in a case in case of failure.  These backup machines should be able to pick up recording on the other machines removable media without the fear of erasing all the information already recorded.

----Courtney

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There is not very  good interchangeability between machines.  The fostex machines marry each DVD to a Hard drive partition and won't let you record again on it if they get out of sync (i.e. you have more files on the DVD than on the internal HD). You might think it would be possible to pull the CF card out of a Deva Fusion and pop it in a 744T or vice Versa.  But when I tried to put a 744T recorded CF Card in a Fusion, its only option was to Format the Card.  It wouldn't let me record additional data on the card until it formatted it .

Because many people are recording on multiple machines or keep one in a case in case of failure.  These backup machines should be able to pick up recording on the other machines removable media without the fear of erasing all the information already recorded.

----Courtney

"You might think it would be possible to pull the CF card out of a Deva Fusion and pop it in a 744T or vice Versa" Well, I actually knew that you could NOT do this...  the kind of interchangeability and compatibility that we would THINK, in  a perfect world, should happen, just does not. Courtney and others have been very thorough in the investigation of lots of these issues (Courtney specifically discovering quite some time ago that even at file level, not every .bwav file is necessarily identical to another .bwav file in some crucial attributes.

When we talk about what happens (or doesn't happen) when we put a 744T CF card into a Deva Fusion, does anyone know what happens if you take a DVD-RAM disk made on a Fostex PD-606 and put it in a drive connected to a 744T? Can you copy those files to the 744T and have it all play nicely together? Scott F. has told me, off group, that the Cantar can import .wav files from an external source, but there is some indication from Scott that metadata isn't necessarily all carried over properly. It is all a little bit of a mess and I don't think it will get better.

-  Jeff Wexler

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There is not very  good interchangeability between machines.  The fostex machines marry each DVD to a Hard drive partition and won't let you record again on it if they get out of sync (i.e. you have more files on the DVD than on the internal HD). 

There actually is a way to do this with the Fostex machines.  In the more commonly used "DDR" mode, it is not possible, for the reasons you describe.  But there's a second recording mode (I think called "Backup" or something) where the Fostex (or at least the 824) will write to two separate pieces of media, and lack of available space is the only potential obstacle.  I can't remember if there is a compromise here or not (eg not writing simultaneously or something) -- it's been a couple of years since I used that mode.

  I think the manufacturers need to work together to fix this interchange problem.

Because many people are recording on multiple machines or keep one in a case in case of failure.  These backup machines should be able to pick up recording on the other machines removable media without the fear of erasing all the information already recorded.

It probably benefits the manufacturers to have their recorders NOT compatible with the competition's -- this coerces people to buy their secondary recorder from the same manufacturer.

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When we talk about what happens (or doesn't happen) when we put a 744T CF card into a Deva Fusion, does anyone know what happens if you take a DVD-RAM disk made on a Fostex PD-606 and put it in a drive connected to a 744T? Can you copy those files to the 744T and have it all play nicely together?

It doesn't work, no.  The 744T needs a specific file/directory structure before it will allow the media to be accessed.  On top of this, the Fostex recorders write in UDF format, and the SD recorders write to FAT32.  Neither system is compatible with the other's right at the hardware stage, I believe.

On the bright side, as others have noted, it's pretty easy to turn in two separate discs, and doesn't impinge the workflow much.  As things progress and optical media starts to eventually become obsolete in favor of simply turning in drives, I think the issue will become moot eventually.

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"You might think it would be possible to pull the CF card out of a Deva Fusion and pop it in a 744T or vice Versa" Well, I actually knew that you could NOT do this...  the kind of interchangeability and compatibility that we would THINK, in  a perfect world, should happen, just does not.

I think this is an operating system problem, not a problem with the files per se. Because Zaxcom, Deva, and Fostex all use proprietary operating systems, they all format their drives a little differently.

If there was a way to standardize on UDF, FAT-32, or something similar, then I would think it would work. Since they can do it with DVD-RAM disks, I would think that it wouldn't necessarily be that big an issue to pull off. Maybe Howie could chime in with more.

--Marc W.

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I think this is an operating system problem, not a problem with the files per se. Because Zaxcom, Deva, and Fostex all use proprietary operating systems, they all format their drives a little differently.

--Marc W.

The "problem" as I understand it, is that the operating system of each machine is doing a whole lot of other things besides determining the disk (storage) format. The reason why they all can produce a DVD-RAM disk that works everywhere is that the disk is formatted (either Fat32 or UDF) and contains just the files. The way the various operating systems LOOK at disks (storage devices) that have been put INTO their machines is usually proprietary and quite variable. Add into this the various naming schemes, the ordering of bits of metadata and so forth, and it makes the interchange next to impossible.

I don't pretend to really understand all of this in any complete way and since posing the original question I have found it to be less of a dilemma --- use 2 machines, turn in 2 disks.

-  JW

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I don't pretend to really understand all of this in any complete way and since posing the original question I have found it to be less of a dilemma --- use 2 machines, turn in 2 disks.

I agree -- even though this is a complex way to go, I think it offers the fewest compromises and the fastest speed.

One thing I've mulled over (at least for film shoots) is to roll a multi-track Deva for post sound, while a simultaneous backup 2-track (like on an SD722T or Metacorder) records only a dailies mix. Two disks, two different sets of files, plus you have a backup on the internal hard drive for each. I like the idea that this way, the dailies people get a simple mix that takes up very little disk space, plus they can't possibly screw it up.*

On a project I worked on in Italy awhile back, I remember one mixer who tried this latter method (using a Cantar and a Fostex), and submitted a CD-R every day with just a mono mix track. Editorial got a 6- or 8-track disk. All the mono dailies takes takes fit fine on just a single 25-cent blank CD, and we never had a problem playing them back in telecine. It works great, as long as you're certain you won't have more than 700GB of files.

Note that the Fostex machines used frequently for dailies in LA can handle CD-R, DVD-R, and DVD-RAM, so all of these formats are options for delivery formats. I'm 99% certain that Aaton inDaw can also handle any format that mounts on a conventional Windows computer, so they should work with that as well.

--Marc

* famous last words. *sigh*

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the operating systems on recorders (yes, they have them) are really pretty basic, and only smart enough to deal with limited specific alternatives, with everything else being unacceptable.  this is because of CPU power and memory restrictions, along with the philosophy that a special purpose computer (recorders) should be very limited in what they do, (like recording) especially compared to general purpose computers  including Mac's and PC's.

There is no part of the firmware (program) on the storage media in recorders, which severely limits the amount of processing power available for all those complex fancy file capabilities or the GP computers.  Thus the recorders appear dumb when they do not encounter exactly the file structure they have been designed to use.

while the external media (like CD's and DVD's) must be acceptable to the outside world, the individual recorders do not come with the smarts to recognize the media from other recorders (unless it exactly meets its own specs)...

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Last night I pulled my 744T CF card and copied a 2-track .WAV file from Boom Recorder into the folder with other 744T files.  I put the CF back in the 744T, copied the file to the DVD-RAM mirror disk and then played the file on my 744T from the DVD-RAM drive.  I'm not sure if all metadata was transfered, but it all seemed to work just fine.

Robert

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Last night I pulled my 744T CF card and copied a 2-track .WAV file from Boom Recorder into the folder with other 744T files.  I put the CF back in the 744T, copied the file to the DVD-RAM mirror disk and then played the file on my 744T from the DVD-RAM drive.  I'm not sure if all metadata was transfered, but it all seemed to work just fine.

Robert

It will work fine with the files as long as you use a computer to move the files from one preformatted media to another preformatted media for the destination machine.  In your case you pulled out a preformatted card from the 744t and put in in a computer which can easily navigate the 744t folder structure on a Fat 32 formatted CF Card and place files in it that can then be read and moved around on the 744t connected media.

The problem would occur if you tried to move files from say a Deva Fusion formatted CF Card into the 744t hard drive by putting the CF card directly in the 744t.  (or vice versa) without using a computer as an intermediary to navigate the different folder structures..

Both the 744t and the Deva CF recorders use a specific folder structure even though they both format the cards in FAT 32.  When you insert the CF card into either of those machines if it doesn't find it's own folder structure it assumes it is not a audio CF card and only offers to Format the card which will erase all the content. 

Putting the smarts in the Machine's OS to be able to read any folder structure and use what it finds would require some additional code to allow folder navigation in an unknown structure.  It can be done, but doesn't offer much in the way of return for a Manufacturer.  Lack of interchangeablility fosters brand loyalty for people with multiple machines.

-----------Courtney

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