Jump to content

RED Dragon with 2.0 fan noise


cws837
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi all,

This is my first topic post after a long while of lurking and a few replies.  I'm glad I finally have something worth posting about!

 

I worked on my first shoot using a RED Dragon this past weekend.  (Location was a small New York apartment for reference.)  The camera had the 2.0 fan installed.  I agreed with the 1st AC to set the fans to 35% for recording, as that has always been a happy position on all the RED Epic shoots I have worked on.  During recording I noticed an awful high pitch whine, not loud but not pleasant either.  

 

At first I thought it was the result of the electronic HMI ballasts being used.  The next lighting setup used all tungsten units.  The noise was still there.  Then I thought it might be one of those "supersonic" bug deterrents, as I've had issues with those in the past.  

 

No bug deterrent.  It bothered me the whole day.

 

The next day of shooting we were using a C300.  No whine.  At this point I realized it must have been the Dragon.

 

This is not something I've ever run into before with a camera from RED.  Has anyone else experienced this?

 

TL;DR: Has anyone heard a high pitch whine from the RED Dragon or RED fan 2.0?

 

Cheers,

Chris

Link to comment
Share on other sites

post-273-0-98596100-1411491587_thumb.jpgThis is a discussion on this issue that was posted on the JWSound Facebook page:

 

From Simon Hayes;

 

I met one of Reds senior engineers last week and congratulated him on the design of the "adaptive preview quiet mode " with 25% shooting fan speed available on the dragons.

 

The Adaptive preview quiet mode set to 25% WILL NOT allow the camera to overheat- why would red design it if it did?

 

It's design is specifically for sync sound.

 

We are shooting on VERY hot sets right now with 4 cameras set to this setting with NONE of them overheating.(Jungle sets - no air con and no extracts to keep the smoke in).

 

The setting constantly assesses chip temperature while rolling and in idle and controls fan speed to keep the chip at the user determined chip temperature (60 degrees for us- the Red default).

 

A lot of the time the fans will not even spin up to 25% unlike the old manual settings that used 25% even if it didn't need to.

 

With the adaptive preview you also do not get the loud idling fan noise on rehearsals etc because the camera is constantly assessing what is needed.

 

Don't worry that a constantly changing fan speed will mean less consistency and more difficultly notching it out in post.

 

At 25% and less it is almost as quiet as an Alexa and you will be good unless in tiny room shooting super close up.

 

If one of your Reds is noisier than the other it points towards one of the 2 fans in that specific camera being broken or full of dirt and not running properly resulting in the other fan having to work harder to keep the temperature at the desired level.

 

Regarding a cameras temperature reading going 'Amber' on a long take- that will happen but the adaptive fan speed will just increase gradually to keep it from overheating- that is EXACTLY the difference between the adaptive setting and the old manual settings where if a camera became too hot it would kick in the fan at maximum speed.

 

The chips are so happy running hot that there is actually a heater built into the cameras to keep them up to temperature when shooting in cold climates.

 

What the chips do not like is to be constantly changing temperature.

 

They like to have a target temperature that is achievable for working conditions set, the black balance set for that chip temperature and then the adaptive preview quiet settings 'job' is to keep the temperature within the correct parameters for the specified chip setting.

The adaptive preview quiet is constantly assessing and reacting to stop overheating happening.

 

Things should be fine but I would be interested to know what temp the chip temp is set to?

It is on the same menu screen as the fan speed.

 

Remember your ammunition on this subject is that 65 degrees is the red default setting ie how they come out of the box and the setting after a "restore factory settings" situation.

 

If your DP is running say 50 degrees in LA if course the fans will have to work too hard.

 

Again- so long as the black balance is set for the required temp it's all good.

Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cws: "  Has anyone else experienced this? "

I believe so

" Has anyone heard a high pitch whine from the RED Dragon or RED fan 2.0? "

i believe so

 

Dear Hon. Senator Mike, et al.

 

Fury was onset, during  a 12 hour shoot last week, in LA, with ambient temp at 101, during zenith of the day's temps  . Frame and Project rate 23.98, 1/48 and Adaptive Mode set as above, but in the most claiente part of the day, Temp showed RED on display.  Fury instructed Camera OP to Black shade (saved in camera, as there are fo  4 Blackshade presets allowable, for in camera storage, on Dragon) and Green/Green, from then on out, as expected. That Dragon does whine, when out of record mode and temps soar, but what bi.../Dragon doesn't...

 

YNNV and A LOT DEPENDS...

 

Thank you very much

 

Fury

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We did not find the "Adaptive Preview Quiet Record" worked for us. We found the fan speed would creep up to 35% when it needed to even on cool sets. We went back to manual with a max run speed of 25% and an idle speed of 60%. Sure we have the noisy fans for rehearsal but the record speed is way better and often sits around 19% as the cams are cool to start with? The Reds maybe better than they were but still very un sound friendly. Two cams on a quiet set with low level dial is a challenge for them.

Tony

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

The new bottom fan has a wine. You can hear it on this comparative test.

The best solution out there for sound with Scarlet, Epic-X and Dragon is the FanPlate using the original bottom fan and the Adaptive mode (not quiet record) set to 65C° or even better set to 70C°

 

Here the test.

 

Patrick

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for their posts and insight, but also redirect this thread.  My original post was not in reference to the standard RED fan noise.  The issue I was running into was a tonal whine, similar to that produced by an electronic HMI ballast.  The whine was somewhere in the region of 5-6 khz.  Hope this helps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fans are field replaceable. It could be that the fan is dirty and or defective. There were recent upgrades to a newer fan. The camera department should contact the camera rental house and get it serviced. In the 'old days' Panavision would send camera technicians to service their cameras world wide. There also used to be at least one assistant camera person who was a qualified camera tech.

Your issues should be dealt with professionally by the camera department. Keep on them to help you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I want to thank everyone for their posts and insight, but also redirect this thread.  My original post was not in reference to the standard RED fan noise.  The issue I was running into was a tonal whine, similar to that produced by an electronic HMI ballast.  The whine was somewhere in the region of 5-6 khz.  Hope this helps.

 

The camera doesn't emit other noise than the one from the fan (whine like).  Your description, 5-6 khz tone, is IMHO not from the Epic. Though I never worked with the ProIO module or other modules containing fans...

 

Pat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hello Tonetripper,

 

There are some advice on this forum how to use the Fan modes on the Epic Dragon to get the best audio recording experience with it. The good news is that Dragons makes less noise (as it likes more heat than MysteriumX) than Epic-X with the MysteriumX sensor.

 

IMHO the best fan solution is the FanPlate with the original bottom fan and fan record mode on the camera set to adaptive 70C°.

 

See you

 

Pat

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would also add: get lots of room tone with camera rolling (and silence from the actors) and give the post sound people the ability to sample the noise and notch it out of the final dialogue. If it's a 4000Hz-5000Hz signal, unfortunately that's in the dialogue band but at least something like iZotope should be able to knock most of the noise out with processing. It's a bandaid, but it can work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

I am at our camera and sync test. The Dragon is set for either adaptive or adaptive preview quiet record. On both, the temperature settings are greyed out and not adjustable. On adaptive preview quiet record, the record fan max is 50% and preview 75%. On adaptive, both are set for 75%.

DP is already saying he wants adaptive only. Says he "doesn't know what the other one does" and it's so new that nobody knows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello,

 

What firmware version do you use on the Epic Dragon?

 

While on adaptive, you can't change the fan speed, therefore they are grayed out.

 

Adaptive quiet record is good only if you shoot takes less than 1 minute wich is hard in our days. In this mode the camera could get hot and burst the well known "blower effect" or even shut down if getting too hot. You could also hear an increase of fan noise during the take if it has to cool down. With the actual firmware, I don't remember wich possibility it will choose...

 

BEST setting IMHO is to use Adaptive mode with the TEMP target set to 70C° (the max). I allways run this way and there is no danger for the camera boards. You get a quieter camera on the long run and have the same audio experience during rehearsal & shooting. So you can take the right decisions on the rehearsal.

 

My camera setup, to get the best audio experience (less fan noise), is to use the Original bottom fan (old version V1) and the FanPlate.

 

 

I shoot documentry and features without sound problems. If you have any other questions please post here.

 

Have a nice prep.

 

Pat

 

PS: for the synch do you shoot 25p?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...