Jump to content

Overlapping dialog


Izen Ears

Recommended Posts

 It's yet another reason why I'd like to see Denecke and Ambient offer a "beep" option for claps on their slates -- a 1-frame flash of light and 1K beep, with a volume control

I'm pretty sure Denecke's slates "numbers" Flash brighter for the least a frame when sticks are slammed... hence generating a loud clap associated with it (volume of the clapper controlled by the striking force applied) .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Yeah, absolutely. What's always fun during a tail slate is when the actors on the set are clapping their hands at the same time, or an impatient AD is yelling, "alright everybody, back to one, please!" and clapping their hands for emphasis.

Working as a post-sound editor I used to look for a "p", or "t" on talents lines... or other percussive sounds to sync upon

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sound disk typically is run in "Time-Link" mode in telecine, so it goes by timecode, starting at the lowest number (Hour 1) and going to the highest number (Hour 23). Even then, post people won't know when to look for a Wild Track or Room Tone file if they don't know it's there in the first place; without a log sheet, it'd be a needle in a haystack.

I guess I should assume from this that the DV824/40/etc doesn't list filenames in "Time Link" mode?  I use a DV824 for recording and when I select a disc or partition and then "file select", a scrolling list of everything that's been recorded on the disc choronologically pops up, but maybe that doesn't happen in the mode that's required by you guys when transferring. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I should assume from this that the DV824/40/etc doesn't list filenames in "Time Link" mode? 

No, the file names still show up on the front-panel readout of the machine. But the DVD-RAM deck is usually about 10-15 feet away from the colorist, sometimes even in another room, as are the telecine transport and the three or four VTRs used during the session.

Given that a typical HD dailies session costs upwards of $700 an hour, it might take us 15-20 minutes to manually jog through every track on a disk in desperate search of a missing wild track or room tone. This is completely avoided with a written log.

On Sergio's comment about the momentary bright TC numbers on newer Denecke slates: this is an option that has to be activated, plus it only works if the TC display is correct (that is, jammed to the recorder). And we're still put off if there's loud noises during the clap. Sadly, there's often the chance that either the camera operator or the sound mixer will shut off their machines before the tail stix, which occurs at least 1/3 of the time, in my experience. (Usually, it's the camera.)

BTW, a little-known fact: if you stop a TC audio recorder in the middle of a take, then start it up again, you don't have to request another clap. The Time Link mode will automatically add X seconds and frames of blank space when the machine came to a stop, then the machine will automatically get it back in sync the moment the next file starts back up. This only works for telecine or tape-sync dailies, and it's a little more trouble in a post-sync session done by an assistant editor.

--Marc

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This discussion seems to be drifting a bit from overlapping dialog and even from evading blame through note-taking into effective communications with telecine. But, since it stretched out for six pages, I hardly feel that I am hijacking the thread to pursue some communications issues.

The Aaton Cantar has a creative system of file identification. The files have a special Cantar number rather than using the scene/take ID as the file identification. But the scene and take numbers are readily available in the Metadata and are easily read, as I understand it, by all the software in common use.

The Cantar also uses a take identifying system that, at least theoretically, simplifies the task of hunting up wild tracks and ambiance. The system defaults to a take logging ID (e.g. s106At3 for Scene 106 Apple Take 3) but the "take" identifying letter can be easily changed. Pressing the Red/Gold button while in record or pre-record cycles through a series of identifying letters:

t = take

p = pick-up

w = wild

a = announce

n = no good

So far, I have under-utilized the advantages of this system. Selecting "n" automatically resets the take number and is the easy way to deal with false starts. I believe that the aborted take is non-destructively placed in a separate folder where it might later be accessed. I haven't really used the "a" for line-up tones or the "w" for wild track but I expect they work in a similar fashion, segregating the recordings in easily identifiable folders.

It would seem this would be quite useful for wild tracks and ambiance because the telecine operator wouldn't have to rifle through a gazillion files to locate special recordings. I don't mean this to become one of those "my recorder is more special than your recorder" posts. This sort of file management software seems pretty simple and, if it's really useful, any of the other manufacturers could implement something pretty similar.

So, I'm asking if others have encountered this in post and if it has simplified the task of finding files. Is this a useful system or one more complication?

David Waelder

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, the file names still show up on the front-panel readout of the machine. But the DVD-RAM deck is usually about 10-15 feet away from the colorist,

Ah, I guess that's the killer.  I couldn't understand before how it could possibly take 15-20 minutes to skip through ten screens displaying five files each to find WS_1056.wav -- actually I'm still not sure -- but I can certainly see the nuisance factor if the machine is not easily accessible by the operator.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This discussion seems to be drifting a bit from overlapping dialog and even from evading blame through note-taking into effective communications with telecine. But, since it stretched out for six pages, I hardly feel that I am hijacking the thread to pursue some communications issues.

The Aaton Cantar has a creative system of file identification. The files have a special Cantar number rather than using the scene/take ID as the file identification. But the scene and take numbers are readily available in the Metadata and are easily read, as I understand it, by all the software in common use.

The Cantar also uses a take identifying system that, at least theoretically, simplifies the task of hunting up wild tracks and ambiance. The system defaults to a take logging ID (e.g. s106At3 for Scene 106 Apple Take 3) but the "take" identifying letter can be easily changed. Pressing the Red/Gold button while in record or pre-record cycles through a series of identifying letters:

t = take

p = pick-up

w = wild

a = announce

n = no good

So far, I have under-utilized the advantages of this system. Selecting "n" automatically resets the take number and is the easy way to deal with false starts. I believe that the aborted take is non-destructively placed in a separate folder where it might later be accessed. I haven't really used the "a" for line-up tones or the "w" for wild track but I expect they work in a similar fashion, segregating the recordings in easily identifiable folders.

It would seem this would be quite useful for wild tracks and ambiance because the telecine operator wouldn't have to rifle through a gazillion files to locate special recordings. I don't mean this to become one of those "my recorder is more special than your recorder" posts. This sort of file management software seems pretty simple and, if it's really useful, any of the other manufacturers could implement something pretty similar.

So, I'm asking if others have encountered this in post and if it has simplified the task of finding files. Is this a useful system or one more complication?

David Waelder

I think that system has possibilities on features and episodics where a modus operandi can be established and followed.  I see at as less useful on smaller jobs where there would not be time or will to set up a system like this.  For telecine, my experience is that it is all picture driven.  The DV40 etc puts the files in TC order and the operator looks thru the film for slates and lines things up.  If they have been asked to, they will dub off wild tracks to another tape, sometimes "offline"  ie not during the picture session and with the work done by an assistant.  They DO read reports, not for mea culpas and blame assignment, but to understand what they are seeing.  As I said, around here anyhow they don't always bother with wild tracks in sync rolls unless they've been asked to (some producers thgink it saves money to have their ass't editors patrol the disks and reports for those).  Not sure how InDaw users deal with wild tracks?

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So far, I have under-utilized the advantages of this system. Selecting "n" automatically resets the take number and is the easy way to deal with false starts. I believe that the aborted take is non-destructively placed in a separate folder where it might later be accessed. I haven't really used the "a" for line-up tones or the "w" for wild track but I expect they work in a similar fashion, segregating the recordings in easily identifiable folders.

Well, if that's the case, it kind of depends upon whether or not the DV824/DV-40 recognizes that folder system in the machine mode that Marc indicates is commonly used for layback.  If not, it obviously doesn't offer much advantage since apparently the machine is just chasing code and not a file folder structure system.  Perhaps it could be used otherwise if the folder could be accessed to simply dump any and all wild tracks from that folder from each sound rolls, but A) I'm not sure if the Fostex system commonly used recognizes that and B) the infrequency with which many of us may actually have wild tracks on certain productions may make it difficult to constantly check for them there.

Even if it does, the limited number of Cantar users out there would seem to make this system something, as Philip notes, that you'd have to personally set up for a project.  I don't think it could just be accepted as a standard that could be used without a conversation and setup with telecine, since a comparatively small percentage of recordings being submitted would actually have that data in that format.

.02 nvt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if that's the case, it kind of depends upon whether or not the DV824/DV-40 recognizes that folder system in the machine mode that Marc indicates is commonly used for layback.

The Fostex studio machines can only go one folder deep (root -> folder1, folder2, folder3, etc.), so you can't put a folder within a folder.

BTW, the Sound Devices machines drive some us crazy in dailies because I seem to recall they create separate folders for deleted files and False Starts. The Cantars also create some weird directories as well, but most experienced post people know which directories to use for dailies and which to avoid. Deva disks are very straightforward, as are the Fostexes, and I've had no problem with Metacorder directories.

One thing I personally dislike is having multiple sound rolls on one disk. We're also driven crazy when a one-day production presents us with 2 or 3 disks, each with only about 30 minutes of material on them, when all of that would've easily fit one disk. It may seem trivial, but trying to figure out which sound roll goes with which camera and take gets confusing very quickly. One roll per day (or two rolls if there's tons of takes) is more than reasonable. Having good sound reports also helps cut down on the confusion.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, the Sound Devices machines drive some us crazy in dailies because I seem to recall they create separate folders for deleted files and False Starts. The Cantars also create some weird directories as well, but most experienced post people know which directories to use for dailies and which to avoid. Deva disks are very straightforward, as are the Fostexes, and I've had no problem with Metacorder directories.

One thing I personally dislike is having multiple sound rolls on one disk. We're also driven crazy when a one-day production presents us with 2 or 3 disks, each with only about 30 minutes of material on them, when all of that would've easily fit one disk. It may seem trivial, but trying to figure out which sound roll goes with which camera and take gets confusing very quickly. One roll per day (or two rolls if there's tons of takes) is more than reasonable. Having good sound reports also helps cut down on the confusion.

--Marc W.

Re SD files: we try to burn only the folder with the "real" files, not FS and Trash, but w/ the DVDRAM burn-as-we-go we can't avoid those folders.

Re: multiple disks for a for a short job or per day--we're sorry if this is a hassle for you guys, but we do this because A: I like backing the files up ASAP, B: when I work with prod. co.'s from out of town (ie LA) whose MO I don't know well I'm never sure that they won't suddenly want to do a film break and we want to be ready and C: burning a whole day's worth of files at wrap on a laptop burner just takes too long--we are holding production up.  On a recent dialog heavy job where we were rolling almost all the time in a bag situation with no simo-DVD, we burned disks at every new spot or setup (swapping CFs)--letting the disks burn as we continued to work.  Esp. at wrap on the last day of a big commercial there is such a scramble over paperwork etc that we really need to not be tied down burning DVDs for a long period of time. 

I had been pretty sure that my written reports were what the telecine operator used for a syncing roadmap.  So you guys never pull off the PDF reports?  We don't carry a printer, so with Metacorder sometimes that is the only report with the Metacorder disks ( I can't write fast enough for that many tracks!)

So.....question:  on some bigger jobs we sell the production a pocket type FW drive that we give them at the end of the job with all the prod sound on it.  Is it at all possible for you guys in telecine to sync/copy from such a drive (given the proper folder organization)?

Philip Perkins

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing I personally dislike is having multiple sound rolls on one disk.

Why?  Duplicate code?  (I don't do this, but I am curious).

We're also driven crazy when a one-day production presents us with 2 or 3 disks, each with only about 30 minutes of material on them, when all of that would've easily fit one disk. 

So you don't like it when everything is on one disc, and you don't like it when everything is on multiple discs.  ;-D

All teasing aside, there are legitimate reasons for multiple sound rolls -- mostly it has to do with rolling on separate units (ie one on a cart and the other in a bag for a breakaway or 2nd unit or whatever).  As we have discussed here in the past, combining material from different devices onto a single disc can be difficult if not downright impossible.  While we're aware of your expensive hourly rate, in the end it's just simpler to have you get up and change the disc and incur an extra minute of telecine time than for us to download the contents of multiple recorders onto a laptop on set, organize it all, and then re-burn a new disc for you at the end of the day to avoid you having to change the disc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Re: multiple disks for a for a short job or per day--we're sorry if this is a hassle for you guys, but we do this because A: I like backing the files up ASAP, B: when I work with prod. co.'s from out of town (ie LA) whose MO I don't know well I'm never sure that they won't suddenly want to do a film break and we want to be ready and C: burning a whole day's worth of files at wrap on a laptop burner just takes too long--we are holding production up. 

I'm sympathetic. Having multiple short dailies disks for one day's worth of material is a little annoying in dailies, but it's not a deal breaker. As long as the disks are labeled and the reports are there, we can sort it out. I have absolutely no problem if there's one disk for the studio work, and a second disk for say, exterior scenes done with a portable rig.

I had been pretty sure that my written reports were what the telecine operator used for a syncing roadmap.  So you guys never pull off the PDF reports?

We can use them if we know they're there. We're working so fast in dailies, there's no time to check to see if a PDF is available. If there's a note on the disk or case "PDF report on disk," I'll use it. All the telecine bays have six or seven computers and at least two printers, so it's not a big deal for us to print them. I think that's pretty standard around LA.

When there's time available, I have my assistant manually go through and log the claps for every scene and take, which helps in the rare cases where all the TC numbers are bad (slate or recorder). We do this for all features and TV series, but rarely have the time to do it for commercials. We use these "clap logs" in addition to the mixer's log sheets, and once in awhile, they come in very handy.

Is it at all possible for you guys in telecine to sync/copy from such a drive (given the proper folder organization)?

Not yet. In the case of Aaton inDaw, they can copy a hard drive files to the inDaw drive and work from that, but I think there's only five companies in LA with inDaw. The other 40-50 companies are all using Evertz and Fostex. If you provided us with a drive or a CF card, we'd just have to burn a DVD-R or DVD-RAM from it before we could use it for dailies. That only takes about 15 minutes, but it's an extra delay and expense. We've asked Fostex to make a drive that would play back from either DVD-RAM or Compact Flash, but they kind of shrugged their shoulders when we brought it up at NAB sometime back.

BTW, I apologize to David and others for the momentary thread hijack. Maybe there's a way for Jeff to split some of the dailies/sound roll discussions over to a separate thread.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why?  Duplicate code?  (I don't do this, but I am curious).

Yeah. Duplicate or overlapping code drives the Fostex machines crazy. We can run them completely manually, but only if we have at least 6-7 seconds of solid code prior to the clap.

So you don't like it when everything is on one disc, and you don't like it when everything is on multiple discs. 

One shoot day, one sound roll. Sounds pretty simple to me. Multiple days on one sound roll is a logistical nightmare, both for us and the sound editor. This was never a problem in the Nagra days (or rarely in the DAT days), but the bigger the storage media becomes, the greater the tendency to cram more stuff on it.

While we're aware of your expensive hourly rate, in the end it's just simpler to have you get up and change the disc and incur an extra minute of telecine time than for us to download the contents of multiple recorders onto a laptop on set, organize it all, and then re-burn a new disc for you at the end of the day to avoid you having to change the disc.

It's fine as long as the sound reports warn that there's a sound roll change. Where we flounder in post is when we're frantically looking for a couple of last takes, and it's not on the disk we have. It usually takes a call to the vault for us to find out [in sleepy vault person voice], "duh, oh yeah, a second disk showed up an hour ago. I guess you need that, too, huh?"

BTW, it's not just the hourly rate that provides pressure for dailies sessions; it's the phone calls from the editor, yelling, "is it done yet? Is it done yet? Is it done yet?" Multiply that times four or five telecine sessions in a day, and you begin to understand the madness of post.

--Marc W.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

BTW, I apologize to David and others for the momentary thread hijack. Maybe there's a way for Jeff to split some of the dailies/sound roll discussions over to a separate thread.

--Marc W.

I don't know what I can do about this. The topic "Overlapping dialog" is our longest running thread so far and it has meandered all over the place (but all subjects covered have been very interesting and engaging).

All we can do is just start a new topic if there are certain things that need to be discussed that have really strayed far away from the original topic heading. Or not...  nothing is mandatory here so don't worry about it.

-  Jeff Wexler

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Going back to this original topic, I recently watched the movie " American Beauty " again and also have just seen the new Coen brothers movie "Burn After Reading" . Both of these films have scenes in them where two characters

are engaged in a telephone conversation and are overlapping each other. Each person is in an isolated shot, when

the off camera is heard, is sounds as if it is "phone filtered" and yet it is still overlapping the on camera dialog. I'm thinking

that the other actor is being filmed and recorded simultaneously in an isolated set and the phone call is "live" and off camera dialog is getting the "phone filter " treatment in post ?

RVD. am even I close to figuring this out ? as I believe you were the mixer on american beauty .

Peter Kurland , did "Burn... "

Best Regards,

KKS.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going back to this original topic, I recently watched the movie " American Beauty " again and also have just seen the new Coen brothers movie "Burn After Reading" . Both of these films have scenes in them where two characters

are engaged in a telephone conversation and are overlapping each other. Each person is in an isolated shot, when

the off camera is heard, is sounds as if it is "phone filtered" and yet it is still overlapping the on camera dialog. I'm thinking

that the other actor is being filmed and recorded simultaneously in an isolated set and the phone call is "live" and off camera dialog is getting the "phone filter " treatment in post ?

Rich and Peter would have to answer the question as regards those two specific films, but the traditional way this is done is that the actors are each recorded *clean* on set in their respective shots.  The overlaps are then created by the picture editor, and the perspective filtering is performed in the dialog edit or at the mix stage at the relevant point in the cut.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another way to approach this, or any situation where "Let's just..." is thrown around without consideration of the consequences, is to take advantage of the ability to redo the shot. Tell the powers that be that, yes, of course we can do the shot with overlaps, but just to be safe, lets get each line clean. Then, if and when it doesn't work, you come off looking like the good guy for getting what they needed in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Another way to approach this, or any situation where "Let's just..." is thrown around without consideration of the consequences, is to take advantage of the ability to redo the shot. Tell the powers that be that, yes, of course we can do the shot with overlaps, but just to be safe, lets get each line clean. Then, if and when it doesn't work, you come off looking like the good guy for getting what they needed in the first place.

All fine and well except that regardless of how many options are photographed, the one that goes in the edit and the movie is the one where the performance is best (overlaps or no).  They'll fix the overlaps later (either by ADR or via editing, if you got the overlap on mic off camera AND that works in the cut) but I have personally seldom seen an editor take a lesser performance in a cut because the sound was better (or cleaner). 

You'll only come off looking like the good guy if you get lucky enough that the extra take that you fought for happens to be the one where the actor shined the best -- and if you do, your heroics are unrecognized because the sound editors won't know the difference -- in the locked picture that was delivered to them, they didn't see all the alternate takes with the overlaps and realized that you fought for the one that was used that didn't have them.

It's a thankless business sometimes.  Thankfully, they pay us.

nvt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Still learning set politics as a boom op, who makes that call?  Does the boom op make the request for a clean cut on a single to the 1st AD, or does that request come from the mixer?  I'm sure there are a lot of variables involved like the boom ops working relationship with the mixer, personalities of the director and 1st AD as well as the script super.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey Rob, as you implied, the variables are many, but 99% of the time that I was a boom op I handled on set communications and most time went through the 1st AD. Many time I had a solid relationship with the director and would go to him straight away, but even if I had that relationship, I included the 1st in the conversation since that is the flow and we are all right there. Politics is the hidden/black art of the job for sure. At the end of the day it is the director we all work for, so it is his call.

CrewC

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 What I have learned from this thread since posting it, is really just a few main things:

- only in clean or mostly clean singles, ask for no overlaps. (usually ask 1st AD)

- don't worry about off-screen lines, unless an overlap is unavoidable

- if an overlap is unavoidable, try to get the off-screen true to its own perspective and coverage (mic, distance from camera)

- it feels cool to have a long thread in this esteemed group ha ha

 Dan Izen

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...