Documentary Production Sound Options--Mixpre-d + Zaxcom ZFR100 and ERX

[nomados]

OK on you being the director,  now, who is the "we/us"  ?

and what documentaries have you made??

 

 

 

You really are a rowdy bunch. As for my work, I most recently did "The Flag" for CNN Films and have made a half dozen documentary features over the last decade. Last time I checked, in response to another poster here, my work is taken seriously enough, although all those knobs and cables confuse me sometimes.

[VASI]

So, you already know how much important is the sound recordist and post production. Why in previous documentaries you had a sound recordist and now you don't?

 

It make sense since you have already done documentaries.

 

I have never told or going to say in one director how to direct a project. Not even to think about it. Why are you asking how to capture sound or how to use the equipment? Sound is job for someone else; not yours. Νonnegotiable this.

[Jeff Wexler]

Okay, I'll weigh in here on this topic. I personally take Mike Tucker's work seriously and am not offended by his inquiry here for the projects he is doing. It is all too true that technological change has enabled one-man-band projects where one person can be producer, director, camera and sound during production. Professional sound mixers need to recognize this and not automatically jump on people who want to do the camera (image recording) and sound (audio recording). I do not feel that by helping someone like Mike it is perpetuating a bad trend or it is hastening the demise of our jobs as sound mixers.

 

I will add, though, that many of the projects that claim to be "one-man-band" actually have quite a lot of other people (crew) involved (and possibly even being paid), producers, writers, personal assistants, production assistants, etc. In these cases, it might be wiser to reconsider dropping one or more of these people in favor of hiring a professional sound person to preside over and be responsible for the all important soundtrack (particularly with any sort of documentary where the sound is undeniably more important than the image).

 

I have no way of knowing whether Mike has been guilty of this sort of thing but I will take him at his word that the sorts of projects he is trying to do need to be done as a one-man-band, camera and sound.

 

I do think that JWSOUND may not have been the best place to try and get advice on equipment and skills needed to be able to work this way --- spending some time with a dealer or manufacturer exploring how best to accomplish this approach might be better. It will always be a compromise no matter what gear is on the job if there isn't a person with dedicated responsibility for the sound. Like hidden camera jobs, certain sorts of surveillance "reality" jobs and so forth, will always dictate procedures and methods that are not typical or traditional.

[old school]

Question for Tucker. Are you the shooter as well as director, or do you hire one?  I inferred from your post that you were as well as editor and producer. I could well be wrong but it is important to know what we are responding to.

It can be done as a one man band as I think Tucker says he does it. I have a friend in Ithaca NY who works solo 90% of the time and his work is outstanding on all levels. His main complaint is he knows how much better it would be if he had a sound man to take responsibility for that and to be a second set of hands and eyes and sounding board for him. When he has worked this way he feels the work was better, went faster, and it was more fun. Sadly for Peter his budgets don't often allow this to happen. Sound like this might apply to Tucker and I suppose many other OMB's out there. 

While I was typing JW posted the best advice so far.

CrewC

[johnpaul215]

Nomandos: Glenn (owner of Zaxcom) made a suggestion above of a ZFR and ERX2TCD. Any reputable dealer should let you try that stuff out with your rig and see if it gets you what you need. Many of us have used an ERX to jam a C300 and it works very well. The range on the ERX for actually hearing the lav is not the same as a proper UHF transmitter, but maybe you don't need that distance.

 

Good luck with it. I'm currently on a show that did 2 seasons with a single host lav direct to camera and a camera shotgun on the other channel. The show has since expanded what they want to do, and hired a mixer (me) as part of the bigger crew. They also want to get better location audio than they used to get. 

 

On a broad level, of course there will be a certain amount of push back asking professionals how to replace them. Imagine calling a plumber all day asking them to walk you through replacing your hot water heater because hiring them isn't really convenient to your day and budget. I understand what you are saying, but my example is what we are all hearing left and right. I've had what amounts to fake job interviews because they want to pick my brain over what gear I would choose for a situation and how I would set it up. I know a few camera ops that had something similar, but it was some shitty production company basically wanting a camera package list for a given show and not ever considering hiring them. They said the conversation slyly degenerated to "Oh by the way I really liked the look of *********, what did you use to get that look?" 

Somebody anonymously comes here to ask what has taken us years to learn...... that's why we're defensive. Like I said, a dealer should set you up well enough. Unless you are doing something crazy, they should present more than one solution and you can pick through the specifics of what will work best on your shoot. That said, the ZFR/ERX sounds like a solid option to start with, and relatively inexpensive for professional grade gear. 

[nomados]

Question for Tucker. Are you the shooter as well as director, or do you hire one?  I inferred from your post that you were as well as editor and producer. I could well be wrong but it is important to know what we are responding to.

It can be done as a one man band as I think Tucker says he does it. I have a friend in Ithaca NY who works solo 90% of the time and his work is outstanding on all levels. His main complaint is he knows how much better it would be if he had a sound man to take responsibility for that and to be a second set of hands and eyes and sounding board for him. When he has worked this way he feels the work was better, went faster, and it was more fun. Sadly for Peter his budgets don't often allow this to happen. Sound like this might apply to Tucker and I suppose many other OMB's out there. 

While I was typing JW posted the best advice so far.

CrewC

Like many filmmakers, my partner and I shoot, edit, direct and produce. It's not only normal now, but has been since the advent of documentary. It's often a very personal medium. In fact, my ability to do things myself often dictates the subject matter. The whole point/joy of it is getting great impressions of subject/place/people.

[nomados]

Okay, I'll weigh in here on this topic. I personally take Mike Tucker's work seriously and am not offended by his inquiry here for the projects he is doing. It is all too true that technological change has enabled one-man-band projects where one person can be producer, director, camera and sound during production. Professional sound mixers need to recognize this and not automatically jump on people who want to do the camera (image recording) and sound (audio recording). I do not feel that by helping someone like Mike it is perpetuating a bad trend or it is hastening the demise of our jobs as sound mixers.

 

I will add, though, that many of the projects that claim to be "one-man-band" actually have quite a lot of other people (crew) involved (and possibly even being paid), producers, writers, personal assistants, production assistants, etc. In these cases, it might be wiser to reconsider dropping one or more of these people in favor of hiring a professional sound person to preside over and be responsible for the all important soundtrack (particularly with any sort of documentary where the sound is undeniably more important than the image).

 

I have no way of knowing whether Mike has been guilty of this sort of thing but I will take him at his word that the sorts of projects he is trying to do need to be done as a one-man-band, camera and sound.

 

I do think that JWSOUND may not have been the best place to try and get advice on equipment and skills needed to be able to work this way --- spending some time with a dealer or manufacturer exploring how best to accomplish this approach might be better. It will always be a compromise no matter what gear is on the job if there isn't a person with dedicated responsibility for the sound. Like hidden camera jobs, certain sorts of surveillance "reality" jobs and so forth, will always dictate procedures and methods that are not typical or traditional.

My partner and I probably have some of the shortest end credits in the business. We've always strived to do things ourselves. It's simply not practical to hire an editor for six months or to have a recordist on a difficult/dangerous location for months on end. That's documentary and while it's imperfect, we strive for the best results. One thing we always do have is a postproduction mixer who is essential. I can't (and don't want) to do what he does. I don't have the ears, speed or patience.

[nomados]

Nomandos: Glenn (owner of Zaxcom) made a suggestion above of a ZFR and ERX2TCD. Any reputable dealer should let you try that stuff out with your rig and see if it gets you what you need. Many of us have used an ERX to jam a C300 and it works very well. The range on the ERX for actually hearing the lav is not the same as a proper UHF transmitter, but maybe you don't need that distance.

 

Good luck with it. I'm currently on a show that did 2 seasons with a single host lav direct to camera and a camera shotgun on the other channel. The show has since expanded what they want to do, and hired a mixer (me) as part of the bigger crew. They also want to get better location audio than they used to get. 

 

On a broad level, of course there will be a certain amount of push back asking professionals how to replace them. Imagine calling a plumber all day asking them to walk you through replacing your hot water heater because hiring them isn't really convenient to your day and budget. I understand what you are saying, but my example is what we are all hearing left and right. I've had what amounts to fake job interviews because they want to pick my brain over what gear I would choose for a situation and how I would set it up. I know a few camera ops that had something similar, but it was some shitty production company basically wanting a camera package list for a given show and not ever considering hiring them. They said the conversation slyly degenerated to "Oh by the way I really liked the look of *********, what did you use to get that look?" 

Somebody anonymously comes here to ask what has taken us years to learn...... that's why we're defensive. Like I said, a dealer should set you up well enough. Unless you are doing something crazy, they should present more than one solution and you can pick through the specifics of what will work best on your shoot. That said, the ZFR/ERX sounds like a solid option to start with, and relatively inexpensive for professional grade gear. 

Appreciate the advice. Spent two hours watching Neverclip/Zaxnet demo on youtube last night trying to understand what it can and can not do. Still a little confused, but will hopefully get some clarity.

[max]

If you're looking to do true one man band work, your original idea of a MixPre-D to ZFR100 is too much to carry around.  I've used essentially that rig for about week as sort of a test of a micro bag, and it was a pain in the ass.  It has very limited functionality and will slow you down. 

 

The suggestion of the ZFR(s) + ERX is exactly what you want, I know other OMBs who have used the same thing to excellent results.  Timecode will work great, but as for monitoring you might be out of luck.  The audio range from the ZFR to the ERX is nowhere near the same as from a Nomad or IFB200, so if you're really close you'll be able to hear it but anything more than a few feet will not go well.  You will have to mic talent, check through the ERX, and then let it run. 

 

The other alternative is to use something small like Sennheiser G3s and mount them on the camera, but you can only get one or two channels, sacrificing the boom, whereas with ZFRs you can use as many as you'd like.  The post process will be longer than if you had a full setup but hey, nobody said one man bands were easy.

[Jeff Wexler]

"Like many filmmakers, my partner and I shoot, edit, direct and produce. It's not only normal now, but has been since the advent of documentary."

 

This is a true statement for documentaries but contradicts the fundamental thesis of your original inquiry. In the old days, the "partners" (you and your filmmaking partner) were almost always a cameraperson and a soundperson.

[nomados]

"Like many filmmakers, my partner and I shoot, edit, direct and produce. It's not only normal now, but has been since the advent of documentary."

 

This is a true statement for documentaries but contradicts the fundamental thesis of your original inquiry. In the old days, the "partners" (you and your filmmaking partner) were almost always a cameraperson and a soundperson.

Well, in our my case, I'm married to my co-director and we haven't always had the ability to shoot together. In the olden days, we used to record dual system with an HHB recorder--which I even brought to Iraq on many occasions along with camera gear to record MS ambience and effects. Times have changed--as has our work-- hence trying to find a way to use multi-purpose tools like mixpred-d and ZRF.

[nomados]

If you're looking to do true one man band work, your original idea of a MixPre-D to ZFR100 is too much to carry around.  I've used essentially that rig for about week as sort of a test of a micro bag, and it was a pain in the ass.  It has very limited functionality and will slow you down. 

 

The suggestion of the ZFR(s) + ERX is exactly what you want, I know other OMBs who have used the same thing to excellent results.  Timecode will work great, but as for monitoring you might be out of luck.  The audio range from the ZFR to the ERX is nowhere near the same as from a Nomad or IFB200, so if you're really close you'll be able to hear it but anything more than a few feet will not go well.  You will have to mic talent, check through the ERX, and then let it run. 

 

The other alternative is to use something small like Sennheiser G3s and mount them on the camera, but you can only get one or two channels, sacrificing the boom, whereas with ZFRs you can use as many as you'd like.  The post process will be longer than if you had a full setup but hey, nobody said one man bands were easy.

The original impulse was to simply use a 702t for stereo recordings and jam to the camera. However, this is less than perfect and the idea of wirelessly maintaining TC seemed pretty cool with Zaxnet etc. The idea of the Mixpre-d was to have a bulletproof device that can run on AA with great pre-amps and solid limiting. ZRF seemed to make economical sense + would be a great solution for interviews to boot. The ERX with easy battery power and Zaxnet seems to make total sense, especially if it can auto re-jam in close vicinity. Sounds like the audio to QRX is just for QC and not reliable for scratch.

 

I think if Maxx had Zaxnet I would not be asking these questions as it would solve many problems and we could just throw a small ZRF in the mix.

 

Appreciate the thoughts.

[old school]

"Like many filmmakers, my partner and I shoot, edit, direct and produce. It's not only normal now, but has been since the advent of documentary."

 

This is a true statement for documentaries but contradicts the fundamental thesis of your original inquiry. In the old days, the "partners" (you and your filmmaking partner) were almost always a cameraperson and a soundperson.

Seems as if one of you two needs to become responsible for the sound portion of the shoot. It's not much harder than framing up a shot and focusing it in it's basic form. Put a mic on them or over their head and hit record. Up or clockwise is louder, down or counter clock is quieter. It will be better than what you get now is my best guess.

CrewC

[John Blankenship]

As the owner of a large cache of Zaxcom gear, I believe you are expecting too much of Neverclip.  It is NOT an automatic gain control.  While Zaxcom gear can serve you well in general, if a Neverclip transmitter is not adjusted to its optimum, it can destroy your sound just as easily as any other transmitter.

 

Also, many of us here have worked on numerous documentaries, shot on everything from film and video, to used bread wrappers. 

 

Pay particular attention to Jeff's advice.  Rumor has it that he maintains more than a passing acquaintance with one of the most noteworthy documentary filmmakers ever.

 

Best of luck.

 

[studiomprd]

Crew: " Seems as if one of you two needs to become responsible for the sound portion of the shoot "

excellent, and proven, way to work;  I worked with a married Doc team that did a lot of BBC Nat History films, and the wife actually got a sound EMMY