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SD633 new operator old recordist


Barkersound

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Hi all. I've now got my new 'all singing and dancing' SD633 and I must say that it is brilliant. For the nearly the same money, in number terms, that I bought a four channel mixer ten years ago, I get this versatile mixer/recorder. There are a few changes to the software that I might suggest, though it could be that I don't fully understand how to use it yet!

First: The headphone monitoring allows listening to stereo, mono, left, right etc. but flicking to return from the camera, it reverts to 'as is' two channel. Perhaps I'm sending only one channel to the camera or maybe a voice on one and fxs one the other, so have selected Left on the monitoring. I would wish it to keep to that when switching to the return rather than going one eared.

Secondly and rather more involved: I have occasionally find that I have to feed audio into a Cannon 5D. This needs a pad of about 25dB from line level. On my old mixer, I have a set of tails with a built in pad, so it is normal operation. The 633 has the ability to pad down line level, but it is not that simple. If I do pad the output down, the L/R output meters barely move as they show this level and the headphone level has to be wound up to compensate. Don't try prefading as this is now +25dB, as are the record gongs and this is deafening! Ah, brainwave, I'll set the aux tracks to mirror image the L/R, so now I have the sum meters of both tracks but something strange has happened. I cannot match the headphone levels of the aux out to the camera return. Maybe I'll make up tails with a pad! I know that tone should be at the final stage of the output, but, if I was sending mic level, tone (in my case) would be 8dB below peak at mic level, not 40dB above. So I suggest that the pad should be after everything as though in the output cable and the meters, headphone and recordings are relative to line level. Maybe an indication on the display warning of a padded output might be welcome. Finally, I could then use tone to line up my mixer with the camera's input.

I'm probably missing something.

I would welcome any ideas, suggestions, threats etc.

Chris.

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I know, I was involved in those tests.  

 

All of the testing was done using a mic level output since the 5D has a mic level input.   Max Mic level output of a 633 (or 664, 552, etc) is -20dBu which matches up nicely with the -16 dBu max input level of the 5D:

 

  • For best signal transfer from an external audio source, set the gain to manual control. Adjust it one click above full-off (from the far left). At that position the input clip level is -16 dBu, noise level (unweighted) is -80 dBFS, dynamic range is 80 dB, and the THD at -12 dBFS is 0.048% (unweighted).
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Thank you for your reply Matt.

 

Are you suggesting that I send out at mic level and mod to +20bB? If so, wouldn't this be dangerously close to clipping point of any sd/cf recording I'm making as a back up? Is it a possibility to have the output pad to happen after metering and monitoring, as feasible software upgrade?

 

Chris.

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Welcome barker: " There are a few changes to the software that I might suggest, "

suggesting changes is blood sport here... everyone wants something changed/....

" though it could be that I don't fully understand how to use it yet! "

maybe that first,  try RTFM, then some reading and searching here --for better results use Google, with jwsoundgroup.net as your first search term.

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Thanks Senator, John and Matt.

Ah! I asume that what I see on the display, levels, limiting, is what I'm recording and sending out. Tone set at 8dB below what I peak to will be what I'm outputting except when I pad down the output (the reason for this discussion)! It is also that which being recorded on armed tracks. If I wind down the output 25dB, and the L/R then displays this level, is that not what is being recorded? Where am I going wrong?

Chris.

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Thanks Senator, John and Matt.

Ah! I asume that what I see on the display, levels, limiting, is what I'm recording and sending out. Tone set at 8dB below what I peak to will be what I'm outputting except when I pad down the output (the reason for this discussion)! It is also that which being recorded on armed tracks. If I wind down the output 25dB, and the L/R then displays this level, is that not what is being recorded? Where am I going wrong?

Chris.

Where are you winding down the output by 25dB?

When you set the nominal output level of the outputs (3 options: -10, mic and line). This should have no effect on your meters or on the internal recording. This is a menu option and it refers only to the physical output.

Do not change the level of the L/R bus, that's different from the external output and will affect your meters and internal recordings

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I guess I am just not understanding the need to pad anything down.  The only time I've ever had to use pads with a 5D was with the 788T, which has line level outs.  A couple of Line - Mic pads, and I was ready to go.

 

Mic level output to Mic level input, set the camera to the lowest level possible on manual.

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Hi all.

The master level of L, R, X1, X2, X3, and X4 buses of the 633 can reduced in 1dB increments from 0dB down to -30dB/off. Note, output level of Tone is not changed. (Page 28 of the user manual).

With regard to driving at mic level into a 5D set to manual with gain at one click of the bottom, is that sufficient for reasonable mod. level? Next time I meet one, I'll give it a go, but I'd be surprised if a 25dB reduction of line level produces the right gain setting at the 5D, that a mic level out is not much too low.

As for backup, I'd love production to use my files as the master tracks but face reality; they pay and they choose which audio they use. I do my best to make sure that they have the best of which ever they use.

Chris.

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Hi all.

The master level of L, R, X1, X2, X3, and X4 buses of the 633 can reduced in 1dB increments from 0dB down to -30dB/off. Note, output level of Tone is not changed. (Page 28 of the user manual).

With regard to driving at mic level into a 5D set to manual with gain at one click of the bottom, is that sufficient for reasonable mod. level? Next time I meet one, I'll give it a go, but I'd be surprised if a 25dB reduction of line level produces the right gain setting at the 5D, that a mic level out is not much too low.

As for backup, I'd love production to use my files as the master tracks but face reality; they pay and they choose which audio they use. I do my best to make sure that they have the best of which ever they use.

Chris.

I am still not sure what exactly your problem is. But for level matching between 633 and camera you normally wouldn't adjust your bus level. You switch in the tone on the 633, set the outputs to mic. If the level on the 5D is too low then increase gain on the 5D.

If the camera accepts line level then use that and set your recorder to line level out. If line out from 633 is too hot, pad it down with a cable, do not change your bus levels for this. Surely you know all of this?

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Chris, I'm still struggling to work out what the exact problem is, set the output level, which you set for each set of outputs to mic if the camera is mic in (which the 5D is) Line if it's line in, then record at the normal levels internally in the 633. I'll have to disagree with you regarding recording audio onto a 5D which is what you specified in your OP, I would never, ever pitch this as being the master sound, not on a 5D or a Blackmagic or any of these toy cameras. It can be a struggle to get them to use your files when you've shot on a 'proper' camera, but at least you know the on camera audio will be good, you don't have that reassurance with a 5D, so it's reference sound only for me.

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Ok, let's leave the 5D thing for the moment. Reference tone is a reference. In my case, I use the standard in the UK as being 8dB below that the programme material will peak to. This is irrespective of voltage level sent to the equipment. So if I send line up tone, this will enable me to line up another piece of equipment. Whether the setting used is line level, -10dB or mic level is irreverent. The relationship of reference tone to programme level remains the same. My original message points out that if the ADDITIONAL gain reduction that is available on the 633 on all output levels is used, that as it applies only to programme and NOT tone, so this relationship goes out the window. In practice try setting line level out, then put in 30dB of gain reduction, and now you will find that tone is not -8dB below peak, but 22dB above. Get hold of a 633 and give it a try. Please read page 28 of the user manual.

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i'm probably missing something, but it's a well known fact that the 633s tone level doesn't change if you use the gain reduction of the outputs (not sure why this desicion was made since i agree it can be confusing). i seem to remember that some people record their own sine tone and play that back for setting outputs of the mixer/inputs of the camera, but haven't tried that myself.

 

chris

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When in doubt.... The best for me is an actual talk test.... Speaking into a mic, looking at your meters.... and having someone looking at the camera meter while listening to that camera audio, and setting that level... always works well..or....humming a tone through a slate mic....and after setting output level to get a basic, set camera from the hummed tone viewed on your recorder meters... People will think your nuts.. But it will work... My audio to camera is USUALLY just a scratch for edit though...

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