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Sonosax SX-R4+


pvanstry

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Yes you can switch back and forth from internal power to extenal power (like for a battery change) while the machine is running. The internal battery option is the 49wh.

What I understand, from the open day at Sonosax, (as I'm not a sound guy) is that you can mix sample rates for all digital inputs and the machine will synch them to your recorder "project rate".

You can edit takes on the fly (if you need this) they will be added to the clip when the take is over.

The recorded file is ended every 10 (or so) seconds during recording, so if there is a power shut down or an alien attack (camera dep), you don't loose your shot.  They choosed UDF file format.

Pat

 

Edited by Patrick Tresch
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The recorded file is ended every 10 (or so) seconds during recording, so if there is a power shut down or an alien attack (camera dep), you don't loose your shot.  They choosed UDF file format.

Pat

 

​What did you said right now.

 

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There's a lot going on in the PSU, including a transformer made of incredibly tightly packed PCBs which results in much lower RF emissions.

Currently if you were to do a hot swap from internal to external power, the recorder would keep going but anything attached to the DC output would suffer a power dropout, although they're seeing if they can fix this.

I'm a bit confused as to why many other manufacturers haven't used UDF, as it doesn't have the need to split files and writes incrementally.  The Fostex PD606 and PD6 did, though- I believe?

 

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​What did you said right now.

 

​Well I was trying to say that the recorder splits the take in small pieces (5 or 10 seconds units I think) up to when you push the stop button. So If there is a problem during the shot, it will be recorder up to the break and so the whole take wouldn't be lost.

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so kind of like MARF?

​No, Rado, no similarity to MARF. The same goal, to insure that no audio is lost, but different approach. When the method of closing the file and writing the directory at intervals during the recording works as it should, this usually gives you the ability to recover the audio up to the time of the last interval. I believe most of the recorders now do it this way to try and provide the sort of bulletproof safety and security that MARF has provided with Zaxcom recorders from the very beginning. I think it is safe to say that these methods do work, for the most part, with MARF still having the advantage in the way it writes the directory insuring that no audio is lost up to the last sample when the failure occurred.

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There is no system for recording that is comparable to Zaxcom MARF (Mobile Audio Recording Format).  Other systems either constantly write a directory to try to minimize the loss of audio in the case of a problem and or provide multiple power backups in a effort to eliminate data corruption due only to power interruption.

MARF is the only system that embeds the  file directory directly into the audio data so that audio can be recovered with no directory present and without special software or 3rd party data recovery services. MARF is a catch all for bad media, accidental erasure and any source of file system errors that might under a normal FAT32 file system make it impossible to recover recorded audio data. 

Glenn

 

Edited by glenn
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Just to be clear, I'm not knocking any other system -- these are just tools, after all -- and it's still about choosing the right tool for the job, and our profession is blessed with a lot of great tools to choose from. 

Last year I worked on a show that would record a variety of small takes, and then, without warning, we would continuously roll for a lengthy period.  Due to this unknown, and the fact that I was running a lot of wireless powered in a bag with my Nomad, just about every day there was a time when my battery would die during a long take.

I'd call "battery," pop another in, the file would automatically recover itself, and I was ready to roll again in a matter of seconds.  Every time the file recovered itself flawlessly right up to the point where the battery died.

Later on that show I went to a double battery system, but for those first few weeks, I gotta admit I was especially happy to have MARF -- it does what it's supposed to do and does it well.

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MARF is the only system that embeds the  file directory directly into the audio data so that audio can be recovered with no directory present and without special software or 3rd party data recovery services. 

So, no ZaxConvert needed? How do you go from Marf to Wav?

 

every day there was a time when my battery would die during a long take

I'd call "battery," pop another in, the file would automatically recover itself, and I was ready to roll again in a matter of seconds.  Every time the file recovered itself flawlessly right up to the point where the battery died.

Later on that show I went to a double battery system, but for those first few weeks, I gotta admit I was especially happy to have MARF -- it does what it's supposed to do and does it well.

John, to be perfectly honest, this doesn't sound like you at all. Through this board I've come to know you as a super-prepared, self-assured, highly professional sound worker. It's so unlike you to not call "battery" and press "stop" just before the battery died? Is there no battery indicator on the Nomad? 

And to not have a double battery system in place - at least for the recorder (no internal battery that would take over?) - is a great neglect and is, again, so unlike you. And to actually rely on a particular recording format to save the day while letting the recorder die deliberately.... No matter how great Marf is, that's just absolutely, totally wrong. I'm sorry John, you must have been sick that day. 

I'd rather not have Marf available if it means that I will suddenly forget most SOPs

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John, to be perfectly honest, this doesn't sound like you at all. Through this board I've come to know you as a super-prepared, self-assured, highly professional sound worker. It's so unlike you to not call "battery" and press "stop" just before the battery died? Is there no battery indicator on the Nomad? 

And to not have a double battery system in place - at least for the recorder (no internal battery that would take over?) - is a great neglect and is, again, so unlike you. And to actually rely on a particular recording format to save the day while letting the recorder die deliberately.... No matter how great Marf is, that's just absolutely, totally wrong. I'm sorry John, you must have been sick that day. 

I'd rather not have Marf available if it means that I will suddenly forget most SOPs

​In a well-ordered universe, you're no doubt correct.  However, this suited the circumstances of the less-than-well-ordered-universe I was experiencing at the time.  It was a situation where I wasn't going to call "cut" for a battery change until it was absolutely imperative.  I'm not recommending it as a methodology -- just relaying my experience. 

Like I mentioned, we'd go from doing lots of quick takes to a "just keep rolling constantly" situation without any notice.  It worked flawlessly for the time being and then the next round I reconfigured with a double battery rig.

Or, maybe you're right and I was just "sick that day."  In which case I should thank MARF for seeing me safely through my illness.

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Anyway back to the Sonosax R4+,  any idea idea how the dual ADCs are implemented? 

dan

 

I would suspect it would be similar to how Zaxcom did their NeverClip. Since this is an old technique that predates NeverClip by a number if years, that would make a lot of sense. But who knows?

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​In a well-ordered universe, you're no doubt correct.  However, this suited the circumstances of the less-than-well-ordered-universe I was experiencing at the time.  It was a situation where I wasn't going to call "cut" for a battery change until it was absolutely imperative.  I'm not recommending it as a methodology -- just relaying my experience. 

Like I mentioned, we'd go from doing lots of quick takes to a "just keep rolling constantly" situation without any notice.  It worked flawlessly for the time being and then the next round I reconfigured with a double battery rig.

Or, maybe you're right and I was just "sick that day."  In which case I should thank MARF for seeing me safely through my illness.

I'm sure you had your reasons. Still, I can't imagine a situation where you couldn't read you Nomad's display and weren't thus able to call "battery" a bit earlier. But that may be due to my limited horizon, I suppose. 

Anyway, I'm sorry if my post was a bit harsh

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I'm sure you had your reasons. Still, I can't imagine a situation where you couldn't read you Nomad's display and weren't thus able to call "battery" a bit earlier. But that may be due to my limited horizon, I suppose. 

Anyway, I'm sorry if my post was a bit harsh

<grin> I figured somebody would take me to task on that, I just didn't know who it would be.

To give it a little further perspective, ask yourself how you would handle a similar scenario if you were still rolling half hour loads of low print on a Nagra.

Would you reload every ten minutes on the off chance that the next take might be a really long one?  Doubtful.  That would be a tediously futile exercise that would slow down production. 

Instead, most likely you'd keep recording and call "sound roll-out" when it happened.  While the durations are different, I see this as a similar situation.

I guess since you're pressing the point, the takeaway is that MARF offers a reliability comfort zone not totally unlike rolling tape on a Nagra.

I apologize for meandering so far off topic.  Back to the analysis, development, and redesign of the SX-R4+.

Edited by John Blankenship
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  • 4 weeks later...

Hey, Patrick, what the heck does this mean: "I've heard that there is no defintion loss through all the 132db dynamic range" ? "Definition Loss" ? This is not a spec I've ever heard of. By stating this in regards to the upcoming Sonosax recorder, the implication is that all the other recorders have "definition loss"? I don't get it.

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I would like to get some clarification of this 132 dB dynamic range specification. Since from what I am told there is only a single A-D converter used on each analog input how can this 132dB number be accurate? The best A-Ds are about 120dB dynamic range.

 

Can someone explain what is going on here?

Glenn

 

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To answer to Glenn's question, each input has two AD converters coupled to work together, like Neumann's digital microphone or like Zaxcom's NeverClip.

From what they told me, once the signal passed through the differential amplifier, it goes directly to these two AD. After that is (now) well known process. First AD works as ordinaly and once there's hot signal coming, it pass to the other one.

 

Masaki

 

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I only can answer to the first question. You'd better wait to see how they will come with those option (you have to understand that Sonosax is a small manufacturer; all you have to do is wait).

They've briefly showed us that there's a dedicate menu entry to set how you want to mix every tracks. Option to how much dB you want to attenuate when the signal goes to center channel, and I think there was also pan option, not just to send left or right (if memory is correct). 

 

 

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I was at the Sonosax factory in Lausanne a few weeks ago and spent a nice day with Pierre Blanc (Sonosax sales and engineering) going over the R4+ system. Like all things Sonosax, it's great in style, layout and compactness. Even though the color touchscreen display is small to match the size of the recorder, it's very fast to navigate using just fingertips (no stylus required). And if the screen is not enough, it has wifi to appear as a web page on any browser for remote viewing and routing and other control. Didn't go into how the dynamic range was achieved (stacked AD converter method or however). The three modules (4 mic/line recorder, 8 mic expansion module, and fader module) combine or separate to fit the occasion. Very compact with lots of inputs and tracks. Should be great for the bag or ultra compact but very capable carts.sonosax_bench.thumb.jpg.b80812cee2e01dc3

sonosax r4.jpg

sonosax r4 stack.jpg

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Hey, Patrick, what the heck does this mean: "I've heard that there is no defintion loss through all the 132db dynamic range" ? "Definition Loss" ? This is not a spec I've ever heard of. By stating this in regards to the upcoming Sonosax recorder, the implication is that all the other recorders have "definition loss"? I don't get it.

Hello Jeff,

I understand your question ;-) as I would have thought it would have been something known by you folks (I'm a camera guy).

It looks like the low sound levels have usually less resolution ? (how bits are mapped to sound levels) I think it's something like that...

I'll try to get more infos from François Musy as it appears he told this to Jacques after some tests he did with the R4+.

Pat

Edited by Patrick Tresch
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