4 wireless + boom 744T?

[Alan H. Chang]

Yup, the topic says it all.

I'm in a scenario where I'll be using 4 wireless and a boom for production sound, all recording into a 744T.  How to approach?  I'm already considering joining 2 wireless into a channel, where 2 of these talents are talking with a 3rd talent in-between the conversations.  The shots are all crane/masters/and X-wide shots, not a whole lot of them but enough for me to require going wireless.  Another option is to just use 2-3 wireless systems and compensate the 4th character by booming.

Setup #1

SD302 + SD744T

Setup #2

SD442

SD744T

Setup #3

SD302

SD744T + 702T

Setup #4

SD442

SD744T + 702T

Confused? I am!

Alan

[Michael P Clark]

The 302 will get you 5 channels via the 4/5 input, but no iso's.

You could go all wireless and no boom for 4 wireless setups, but that's risky, with no boom.

You could run a wireless directly into the 744, and the other four elements into 442, and mix 2 of the 3 wireless in the mixer. Which seems like the best case to me, with what you have, since you will have a choice of which wireless get mixed.

I have put a 302 and 442 in the same bag for 5-7 element recording, but without the 744t. My bag isn't large enough, but you might have a Pegz3, or similar.

I have also made a simple switch box for these situations where I know there will never be more than 4 at one time, but often less than 4. Where I can switch between a wireless and a boom when needed. Not during a shot of course, but for setups. Worked great, and I didn't have to mess with unplugging a channel every time I needed to switch. Just flick the switch.

Ultimately dependent on whether or not you need to record 4 or 5 elements.

[Alan H. Chang]

Hey Michael,

Yeah, I need all iso's for each element.  I think combining two elements into 1 channel on the 744T is my best way of dealing this.  I have a PEGZ-2, which can host a 302+442+744T or a 302+702T+744T (Gets a little tight).  The problem with having 2 recorders is dealing with another CF card and the power draw that both unit will pull from my NP1's.

Your switch box method sounds so convenient!  Obviously, I've never encountered a situation where I need to switch from boom to wireless.  Most of the times I have extra channels open or all the channels are already occupied to the MAX.

[Philip Perkins]

If you are really being required to deliver iso tracks on all the speakers then you are short a track--you need a different ot an additional recorder.  If the shot or scene or show doesn't have everyone speaking at once, they you could get away with submixing two wires ahead of the 442 (into one channel) and then continue on out the prefade outputs to the 744.

However, you will now be "mixing" on the trims. 

Philip Perkins

[Alan H. Chang]

So I went over the script again and jotted down some notes.  2 scenes will require wireless, 4 elements at most, not a whole lot of dialogue though.  Mainly just one line each element and these are wide shots.  There's also going to be Mediums and CU's after the Master Shot, that's why I want to go wireless for the Master shot so I can capture their dialogue the best I can during that circumstance.  If the shot lets me roll out several wired lavs, that's my better option to do.

The way I look at it, I'm 50/50 on using wireless at this point.  Just called the producer and she didn't even consider Iso tracks, actually surprised that I asked.  Explained to her that I'm planning on running Boom into Ch1, 2x wireless into Ch2, 1 wireless into Ch3, and last wireless into Ch4.  She also told me that majority of the time the talents will be next to each other or fairly close to each other in the Masters. 

[Philip Perkins]

So I went over the script again and jotted down some notes.  2 scenes will require wireless, 4 elements at most, not a whole lot of dialogue though.  Mainly just one line each element and these are wide shots.  There's also going to be Mediums and CU's after the Master Shot, that's why I want to go wireless for the Master shot so I can capture their dialogue the best I can during that circumstance.  If the shot lets me roll out several wired lavs, that's my better option to do.

The way I look at it, I'm 50/50 on using wireless at this point.  Just called the producer and she didn't even consider Iso tracks, actually surprised that I asked.  Explained to her that I'm planning on running Boom into Ch1, 2x wireless into Ch2, 1 wireless into Ch3, and last wireless into Ch4.  She also told me that majority of the time the talents will be next to each other or fairly close to each other in the Masters. 

If it is a low-budg production, I would avoid the iso-track thing if you can and just deliver a split boom/lav mix tracks, esp of the shots are simple.  I often find that relatively inexperienced editors are confused by isos, will sometimes screw up and misplace them or get them out of sync, and won't end up making a good mix of them anyhow.  I feel like it is important to deliver some kind of mix of all those lavs, and then iso what needs isoing the most, if anything.  We've had a lot of discussion of this topic around here over the years, and I come down on the side of the location sound mixer delivering a MIX as the first priority and the isos as a backup, not the other way around.  Besides, isos for dailies and rough cutting are really a drag if all there is are isos (ie no mix).

Philip Perkins

[Stickman]

You might want to consider a plant Mic. In many cases when I am limited on tracks or radio Mic's I will talk to art dept. and see where I can plant Mic's. Wire up your 3 primary talent and use a plant track. Depending on the scene you can everything you need with what you have.

Fernando

[Alan H. Chang]

If it is a low-budg production, I would avoid the iso-track thing if you can and just deliver a split boom/lav mix tracks, esp of the shots are simple.  I often find that relatively inexperienced editors are confused by isos, will sometimes screw up and misplace them or get them out of sync, and won't end up making a good mix of them anyhow.  I feel like it is important to deliver some kind of mix of all those lavs, and then iso what needs isoing the most, if anything.  We've had a lot of discussion of this topic around here over the years, and I come down on the side of the location sound mixer delivering a MIX as the first priority and the isos as a backup, not the other way around.  Besides, isos for dailies and rough cutting are really a drag if all there is are isos (ie no mix).

Philip Perkins

Phil, yes it's a low-budg production on a RED.  You're right on the iso and MIX track priorities, however, the director had told me to just sent him a reference track wirelessly to the cam for editing purposes and use my recorded tracks in post.  He's editing it.  In most cases, I'm sending a cable to the RED rather than wireless for higher quality audio.  I've asked before who is doing the dialogue editing and it seems like not one person is assigned to it.  All I heard the entire day was "We have a sweet ADR stage to do post-sound, try to get a guide track during the noisy scenes."

[Sergio Sanmiguel]

All I heard the entire day was "We have a sweet ADR stage to do post-sound, try to get a guide track during the noisy scenes."

Now they only need experienced ADR actors to go with it...

[Alan H. Chang]

Now they only need experienced ADR actors to go with it...

Hey Sergio,

THAT'S what I thought as well!  Both the director and producer told me that they're going for a 5.1 mix and hopefully getting into a festival around the area here.  I think it's all a sales pitch to get the movie up.  After they explained to me about their wants for the 5.1 Mix, I suddenly said "OH, then that means we need to get as much of the production sound on set.  Including some SFX gathering as well."  I also told them that the possibility of going into ADR is probably next to none if done correctly the first time.  I have almost everything planned and organized in a schedule and it looks like ADR isn't necessary.  Beats me.

The noisy scenes isn't going to be a huge problem, except for being right NEXT to an an airport.  The in-car mounts are going to work for picking up dialogue during the driving scene, if not then lavs.  The best part is we have street closures throughout the entire production schedule.

[jamieg]

I had something like this recently - and went through the possible permutations: one thing into the 744t xlr direct (ch1) and then two mixed from the 442 into ch2, and two iso'ed through the directs (remembering to tape the pots on the iso's down!), a 442 and 302 - similar as before, but not mixing on the 744t itself, and so on. As to putting two mics on one channel for iso's - I've done it once before, when the second mic was a plant for a single line, and made sure there was nothing near it that might cause a noise "off" throughout a very long take.

[gabi]

One possible setup is this:

Boom on ch1 of 744

4 wireless to 442

2 of them mixed to ch2 of 744 using the left out of 442

the other 2 go to ch3 and ch4 of 744 using direct outs of 442

you still have the right line out to send a mix of those wireless to the red as a scratch track

you can also use one line out of the 744 to send the boom track to another channel of the red if you want.

or you can use 1 line out of the 744 to send the boom and another one to send the other 3 channels (4 lavs). Not really a mix, but a sum of those tracks, which is OK for a scratch track.

Good luck

Gabi.

[Alan H. Chang]

It seems like the best way of mixing all these channels is to have Boom on Ch1 of 744T and 4 wireless into 442.  2 channels mixed into Track2 and 3rd wireless to Track3 and 4th wireless to Track4.  I know for sure that the pre-amps on the 442 and 744T are the same.  All I'll be doing on the 744T is riding the trim for Boom.  I'm going to be sending only 1 channel of wireless to the cam, so tape out from the 744T wirelessly to cam?

[Michael P Clark]

Wireless mix themselves better than a boom does. I wouldn't want to ride the gain of a boom on the smaller knob of the 744t. I would try to put the boom into the 442 and use a larger knob.

The small knob on 744t is a fine adjustment. Background ambiance with a boom causes even the slightest volume change with those knobs pretty obvious, in my opinion.

[Alan H. Chang]

Here's an update.

As it turned out (still have 1 more day of principal photography), I didn't use any wireless at all on any of the elements.  The only time I used a wireless was to plant a Sanken COS11 onto the car to get the car door slam.  That's it!

The thing that bothered me the most was the director and several other crew members had no patience on waiting for sound.  I couldn't lav up the elements because the director wanted to shoot as soon as possible.  Times like changing my boom microphone was hard as well.  On the biggest day, I got several comments as being slow and unprepared.  I tried my best to get the right mic and just boom after picture is okay.  What happened was the production manager spoke with the producer and told her that it was very unfair for the crew to speak of the sound mixer.  I was a one-man team and had limited amount of help.  What am I suppose to say?  So I ended up pissed off and stayed quiet the entire night, did my own thing.

Boomed the entire time, channel 1 to channel 1, 442-744.  Sometimes I pulled an extra 641 for a PA to hold for offscreen conversations, planted an extra hyper/card mic for another background conversation that was needed.  I think I managed very well.  I did look like an octopus with several tentacles sticking out at certain times, but so far so good.

Last day of principle photography is this coming Sunday 14th.  All EXT shots.  So wish me luck.  I might have to wire all of them this time.

[pshap]

When anyone on "set" or on "location" tries to rush me with my audio, I resort to this little know but widely experienced truth and explain it to them.....

"You know why you see lightning before you hear thunder? Because even God must wait on sound....now if He must wait, then so must you......."

My advice is to take your time and make sure your audio is right......  Better to take a few minutes capturing excellent audio on "set" or "location" then having to rely on maybe fixing it in post. Sound is your department, not the directors, it is your name on the line regarding audio, not the directors....... Stand up and demand the time to perform your craft correctly....

I hope this helps...

PSHAP

[Keith Birchfiel]

Next time get a boom opr. in the budget

        KEITH

[Alan H. Chang]

When anyone on "set" or on "location" tries to rush me with my audio, I resort to this little know but widely experienced truth and explain it to them.....

"You know why you see lightning before you hear thunder? Because even God must wait on sound....now if He must wait, then so must you......."

My advice is to take your time and make sure your audio is right......  Better to take a few minutes capturing excellent audio on "set" or "location" then having to rely on maybe fixing it in post. Sound is your department, not the directors, it is your name on the line regarding audio, not the directors....... Stand up and demand the time to perform your craft correctly....

I hope this helps...

PSHAP

PSHAP,

Thanks for your support.  I stood my ground oh so well.  The 1st AC, producer, and gaffer came up to me and asked if I was okay.  I told them that some people just don't understand the craft.  The director, however, never came up to me and confirmed this problem.  The great thing, I still leave the set with a smile because I knew my recordings were excellent.  With the support from several other key crew members, I feel that there are people out there who have had the experience and will support those who are insulted. 

[Alan H. Chang]

Next time get a boom opr. in the budget

         KEITH

Yeah, I explained to them that they needed a boom op.  The only response I got back was the budget was too small to allow another person on the sound crew to come onboard.  It's a dangerous game, but every one of us have expected the unexpected before.

[Alan H. Chang]

Sorry, haven't updated this topic for awhile.

Long stroy short, every location had some kind of extraneous noise in the BG.  The director always told me that the next day of shoot will be more controlled and less background noises, NOT.  I was told by the director to just get a guide track because there's going to be LOTS of BG noises.  I did just that with addition of clean dialogue.  Well, I gave an e-mail to the producer asking her how the editing went and she replied back saying that they've finished it last month and sent it to two festivals.

Bad News:

She insulted me saying that I should reconsider my working habits before going onto another set.  Most of the audio turned out crap and is undergoing several recording sessions to re-record the dialog.  She knew I had all the equipments to make it happen and was sure that the audio was fine, but she said that majority of the audio was bad and wouldn't have hired me on the first day.  She complained that the money that was spent for production sound could have been used on hiring another production sound mixer.  WTF!  That was a slap in my face.  I shot a LONG e-mail stating what the reasons were to go ADR.  I am 100% sure that the audio is clean and usuable.  She also suggested that I should have budgeted an asssistant in the sound crew!  Well lady, the budget wasn't even enough to cover all the equipments that I provided.  Ever since Day 1, I asked who was going to be the dialog editor and it turned out to be the picture editor.  Morons!  She assumed that the audio was bad because I asked about the editorials, but I specifically told her so that I can work with the dialog editor to make it happen.  My guess is that they used the onboard RED camera audio that I send them and disregarded my files from the 744T.

[Chas Gordon]

Oh man! That sounds bad. (no pun intended)

I'm so sorry that you had to go through all that. But the reality of this is that the producer and director sound like a pair of inexperienced, self important pricks that didn't let you do your job to your fullest. And I bet you're right about using the RED audio and not your tracks. This is why low budget features get such a bad name.

At least once a year I do a small, low budget feature or a festival film. For the last couple of years I've done The 48hours Film project. Talk about having to be a one man band and moving quickly. I like doing them because it usually involves working with friends and having fun. The Denver competition has gotten very heavy handed. Meaning that it's only 6 or 7 films that are produced by young, inexperienced groups. Most now are produced by long time proffesional camera ops, sound mixers, script writers, editors, actors, producers and directors. The projects are fun (given the right people) and really make you think and act quickly, because you don't usually have too much time for setup.

This is a link to the 2008 film I worked on. There were a couple of spots that I wasn't overly excited about the sound, but no time or money for ADR, so you do your best to give the editor something to use. I used a wide mix of different mics. Jonny Dipantino had a white Countryman B6 on for most of his bits, all other actors had COS-11's on or were boomed using a Schoeps CMC6/41 as were all the "confessional" style parts and I also used an Electro Voice RE50B for the stage mic to get that unique, not quite on mic sound that a stage mic gives when not right on the mouth.

Again, fun!

http://www.youtube.com/user/postfromerica

[Alan H. Chang]

Thanks man, thanks Chas.

I'm feeling burned down right now, but then again I have NEVER received any kind of negativity such as this one in my entire audio career.

"...we are complete with the editing and have already submitted it for two film festivals. We'll find out if we made them within the next couple months.

Right now we are in a recording studio re-doing most of the dialogue. It's unfortunate that after our time on set with you we now have to go back through the film and basically fix the audio. I'm not really sure why there was this issue, you seemed to have had all the equipment. I suppose you should consider getting an assistant to assist you on your next project. I'm saddened at the amount of money we paid you and the outcome not being up to par. Being in the studio last weekend and having to do a second day has really made it come to light exactly how much actually needs to be fixed. I appreciate your excitement about the project but I hope you consider changing your work habits before you get on another set. If i had known this before i don't expect we would have ended up with you."

This entire paragraph was depressing.  I replied back with a VERY lengthy e-mail saying that the audio was clean and wanted to know what the reasons were.  She didn't give me any reasons as to why they needed ADR, beats me.  My guess was that they used the RED audio instead.  And you're right, inexperienced is the correct term.  I also used the CMC641 MOST of the time, but you can definitely hear the generator in the back, maybe 3-4 generators or a BIG one.

Hey, great job on that film project.  I'm impressed!

[Alan]

Bad News:

She insulted me saying that I should reconsider my working habits before going onto another set.  Most of the audio turned out crap and is undergoing several recording sessions to re-record the dialog.  She knew I had all the equipments to make it happen and was sure that the audio was fine, but she said that majority of the audio was bad and wouldn't have hired me on the first day.  She complained that the money that was spent for production sound could have been used on hiring another production sound mixer.  WTF!  That was a slap in my face.  I shot a LONG e-mail stating what the reasons were to go ADR.  I am 100% sure that the audio is clean and usuable.  She also suggested that I should have budgeted an asssistant in the sound crew!  Well lady, the budget wasn't even enough to cover all the equipments that I provided.  Ever since Day 1, I asked who was going to be the dialog editor and it turned out to be the picture editor.  Morons!  She assumed that the audio was bad because I asked about the editorials, but I specifically told her so that I can work with the dialog editor to make it happen.  My guess is that they used the onboard RED camera audio that I send them and disregarded my files from the 744T.

From 1 Alan to another,

Really sorry to hear what happen, next time just treat the camera like any other film camera and clapped it with sticks. You will be rest assure they have to use your 744T recording. Festival Film normally only have a single person working in post, most likely the video editor, if you are lucky they will hire just 1 sound editor.

To think that even if they use your isos recording, do they really know how to cut it? If they sum the 4 channel out and let the Producer/Director preview it, then it will also be big trouble. As Phil say in the earlier post, a 2 mix will work better as it simplify the workflow for them and they are also low on budget. Keep it simple sometimes.

When they say they are going 5.1 mix, it actually means if they ever get into festivals that can give them additional budget for film out and 5.1 mixes, as you know most festival submission are now either DVD or Digibeta. Frankly, an award winning film will not be decided due to its 5.1 mixes.

As for the producer, she just needed a scapegoat for maybe not getting into festivals. Now submitting and getting into festivals are 2 different thing.

All the best Alan.

Alan Chong

[Alan H. Chang]

Alan (sounds like I'm speaking to myself),

Every take was slated, with a TC slate.  And I did treat it like a film cam.  There were shots where NO audio was sent to cam because of cranes and moving vehicle shots.  The DP and AC didn't allow me to hook a wireless hop to it because of weight and available room for mounting.  Odd, but that's how they work.  The director also told me that they'll sync the audio back in post with using the slate, I guess not.  Probably that's why the producer said majority of the audio was crap.

[Alan]

Alan,

Taking away the TC slate and change to a dumb slate, minus the wireless hop and few gadgets you might have yourself a boom op. By the way what I mean by film camera, is not to send any scratch track to the Red at all.