Cyclone vs. Piano

[chrismedr]

They are both good products, just think cinela have let themselves down with that video.

 

 

maybe so, but with the benefit of the doubt it could also be that they seriously tested this with an open mind and in their particular case it was just that the cyclone made a weird sound so understandably they were proud that their product worked better and released the video.

 

judging from your tests, chances are that they had a defective unit or assembled the cyclone improperly, who knows... they probably should have done a test with a second unit and different mikes but as jeff said, it's best to wait for some test results from real world use (and even then we might get very different opinions as shown by the Super Softie).

 

chris

[Glen Deakin]

With cinela apparently the new osix uses the same suspension so just unscrew and attach to indoor mount. Thats my understanding. Still waiting to see the new osix piece with xlr.

[Prahlad Strickland]

we just need someone with a cyclone to swing it just like the fella's at cinela did.

 

my money would be that it whirs like a cyclone.  

 

if not, then maybe it was defective.  

 

Not that we swing it that fast if ever, but if that showed up in high windy days, that would be bad.

 

they really should make it smaller / lighter,  it would sell better.

[bralleput]

Thanks, the fact that you cannot remove the basket entirely, quickly and easily means I won't buy Cinela windshields even if they are very good otherwise. I just often don't have the time to mess about changing suspensions or mics.

This is a major advantage of the Cyclone for me - get rid of, or re-attach the whole basket fast.

Get two similar mikes:one for outside ( in whatever windprotection),one for inside (in whatever suspension) and a quicklock (whatever brand) and you are the boy!Been doing this for years.

[bralleput]

we just need someone with a cyclone to swing it just like the fella's at cinela did.

 

my money would be that it whirs like a cyclone.  

 

if not, then maybe it was defective.  

 

Not that we swing it that fast if ever, but if that showed up in high windy days, that would be bad.

 

they really should make it smaller / lighter,  it would sell better.

Eum.What do you mean with 'defective'in this case?"If it (Cinela or Cyclone?)does not whirl it may be defective...So we need to buy a 'defective' Cinela in order it not to whirl??And fast swings as where shown are never this fast?Had quite a few of those.

[bralleput]

Chris Woolf :"If you want to see some real  differences between the Rycote and Cinela products I'm happy to share some other measurements with the group".

Just make the 'counter you tube test'.

We don't want to see,we want to hear.

[Prahlad Strickland]

Eum.What do you mean with 'defective'in this case?"If it (Cinela or Cyclone?)does not whirl it may be defective...So we need to buy a 'defective' Cinela in order it not to whirl??And fast swings as where shown are never this fast?Had quite a few of those.

no i'm saying,  

if someone can do another test like cinela did,  and it also makes the 'whirring'   then the particular unit that cinela tested... was not 'defective'   but indeed it has a problem when swung fast.

[bralleput]

no i'm saying,  

if someone can do another test like cinela did,  and it also makes the 'whirring'   then the particular unit that cinela tested... was not 'defective'   but indeed it has a problem when swung fast.

Prahlad time for Rycote to make a hear test!

[Prahlad Strickland]

Yessss. I love manufacturer shootouts. Without them. We get stagnation. We want progress and healthy competition is the best way.

[chrisyking]

Aw blimey so which one do I buy?....

[Glen Deakin]

It depends entirely on what you want and the microphone / microphones you want to use.

+1 for Cinela.

[pindrop]

Get two similar mikes:one for outside ( in whatever windprotection),one for inside (in whatever suspension) and a quicklock (whatever brand) and you are the boy!Been doing this for years.

And how rich you are.

And how much equipment you're prepared to lug around.

And whether you rate small differences that greatly.

[soundtrane]

Aw blimey so which one do I buy?....

 

man, you're so fucking lazy... why don't you get your butt off the couch and go check them both out? surely both are available at a location not far from you- in LONDON. 

 

You are privileged to be able to live in London and have access to all the goings-on - you have access to dealers who have the stuff. if not - catch a train and go to Stroud and see it at the Rycote factory, if need be i will announce your impending arrival at rycote with Simon Davies... 

 

As for me, I live in Bombay - and am yet to see a Cyclone in its flesh... courtesy of the local Rycote dealer i will not see it for another few years even... 

[bralleput]

 

And whether you rate small differences that greatly.

I don't understand what you mean....?

[pindrop]

I don't understand what you mean....?

Sorry, I mean the high cost of duplicating mics and suspensions because the wind protection (basket) cannot be fully removed when going from an exterior to a tight interior where every inch counts, in relation to the relatively small difference in performance of one good wind protection system over another.

[Vincent R.]

I thought the whole idea and slim design, plus unnoticeable audible material of the piano is that you leave it on inside. Especially in run and gun situations when jumping from inside to outside. In a feature movie occasion my guess is you have plenty of time to change it.

[chriswoolf]

"Chris - any idea why I´ve got even more handling noise in a Cyclone vs WS4? The low freq handling became much more obvious when the basket elements were put on the Cyclone suspension than without." [Matthias]

 

[i'm sharing a reply to you publicaly because it may help others]

 

Handling noise has two components: the mechanical route through the pole knuckle, mic support frame, mic suspension elements and also the cable - and an acoustic route where the basket is shaken by the pole-originated vibrations and acts as a (poor quality) loudspeaker. Note that the second path bypasses the microphone suspension system completely.

 

The best mechanical microphone suspensions - Rycote lyres and Cinela's Osix - can isolate well down to ~60Hz, in some arrangements a bit lower than that. Both use thin tail cables to minimise that noise conduction path.

 

However the acoustic path is a trickier one to solve. Rycote funded research into it back in 1998 but finding a really good way to solve basket has taken a while.

 

In both the Cinela and the Cyclone the same approach is taken - the basket is isolated from the pole so that finger-noise and similar vibrations are not directly conducted to it.

 

There the two designs part company. Cinela uses an approach that suspends the basket very efficiently but means that it is a fixture - you simply can't get rid of it. And it also puts a number of restrictions on the basket split. Rycote have held fire for a long while until it was possible to come up with a more elegant design (courtesy of my fellow designer, Tim Henson) that provides the required isolation but also enables instant basket removal. It also removes the constraint on the basket split.

 

I've done a number of development studies for the efficiency of the handling noise reduction. I'll try to look out some identical circumstance comparisons in the next few days.

 

One very important thing to recognise is that the slope and knee of any HPF makes a massive difference to the level of handling noise perceived. All handling noise effects are low (and very low) frequency ones. Add a relatively high HPF and the benefits of one system over another will become far less discernible. Drop the filter frequency down to give you the maximum bass and the difference will become much more obvious.

 

Chris Woolf

[chriswoolf]

"I think it would have proved more popular to release the cyclone in a frame similar to piano, and same weight.  The cyclone is rather large."

 

This is an "apple and pears" affair, and also perception.

 

The basic Piano is 175mm wide and 400mm long, but with the long fur the actual measurements (for shadow purposes) are  260mm x 460mm. With a CMIT5U installed - ready-to-run - it weighs 650gm. I've included the long fur because that is necessary to give comparable wind noise reduction to a Cyclone.

 

The Cyclone is 160mm diameter and 460mm long in this version. Shorter versions are in the pipeline but it was important to bring out the most difficult-to-tool one first. Ready-to-run weight of this longer version is 720gm - 11% more than a Piano, but the equivalent shorter one will be near enough identical.

 

So in comparable forms the Piano is actually a lot fatter and can only claim a weight advantage because it is being compared to a larger version of windshield.

 

There is no great surprise in any of this.

 

Philippe Chevenez is not a fool and can design perfectly good suspensions and windshields. The various different elements involved - suspension bars, brackets, connectors, basket frames etc - are unlikely to be radically different in form because the function of the devices are essentially the same. The dimensions are also going to have to be of the same order too. As I've explained many times, the distance of the perimeter (where the noise is generated) to the capsule (where the noise is heard) basically governs the wind noise reduction.  Similar sized windshields are needed to give similar wind noise reduction - there's very little you can do to counter that.

 

The use of 3D-tex doesn't change the physics of how windshields work, but it does allow some design changes and freedoms that were impossible before, and it does provide a material that is vastly more consistent in manufacture, and maintains performance over time and in adverse conditions.

 

Let me state it unequivocally - the Cinela designs are good windshields - I'm not going to get into petty arguments about small differences in performance which are often flavoured by personal bias and anecdote. Under certain specific conditions the Cyclone will be a little better than the Piano, and you might be able to find a moment when the reverse applies. For 90% of the time you could use either, and in a true blind test you wouldn't know the difference in terms of wind noise reduction.

 

What differentiates the Rycote Cyclone is consistency of performance - 3D-tex is a far more reliable material than fur and does not suffer the same manufacturing and longevity problems. And, most importantly, the Cyclone gets round the severe drawback of a suspended and "dressed" basket design, such as the Piano (and Rycote's older designs) - access to the microphone and the ability to strip it in moments to a bare suspension.

 

For many users this convenience, coupled with top-rate performance and a level of engineering that far surpasses any other windshield developed so far, will be the clincher. But if your personal preference is for a Cinela, a Rode, an old Sennheiser design or a piece of foam and duct tape, neither I nor Rycote are going to deter you or rubbish your choice.

 

Chris Woolf

[Markus]

On 2/17/2015 at 12:09 PM, chriswoolf said:

"I think it would have proved more popular to release the cyclone in a frame similar to piano, and same weight.  The cyclone is rather large."

 

This is an "apple and pears" affair, and also perception.

 

The basic Piano is 175mm wide and 400mm long, but with the long fur the actual measurements (for shadow purposes) are  260mm x 460mm. With a CMIT5U installed - ready-to-run - it weighs 650gm. I've included the long fur because that is necessary to give comparable wind noise reduction to a Cyclone.

 

The Cyclone is 160mm diameter and 460mm long in this version. Shorter versions are in the pipeline but it was important to bring out the most difficult-to-tool one first. Ready-to-run weight of this longer version is 720gm - 11% more than a Piano, but the equivalent shorter one will be near enough identical.

 

So in comparable forms the Piano is actually a lot fatter and can only claim a weight advantage because it is being compared to a larger version of windshield.

 

There is no great surprise in any of this.

 

Philippe Chevenez is not a fool and can design perfectly good suspensions and windshields. The various different elements involved - suspension bars, brackets, connectors, basket frames etc - are unlikely to be radically different in form because the function of the devices are essentially the same. The dimensions are also going to have to be of the same order too. As I've explained many times, the distance of the perimeter (where the noise is generated) to the capsule (where the noise is heard) basically governs the wind noise reduction.  Similar sized windshields are needed to give similar wind noise reduction - there's very little you can do to counter that.

 

The use of 3D-tex doesn't change the physics of how windshields work, but it does allow some design changes and freedoms that were impossible before, and it does provide a material that is vastly more consistent in manufacture, and maintains performance over time and in adverse conditions.

 

Let me state it unequivocally - the Cinela designs are good windshields - I'm not going to get into petty arguments about small differences in performance which are often flavoured by personal bias and anecdote. Under certain specific conditions the Cyclone will be a little better than the Piano, and you might be able to find a moment when the reverse applies. For 90% of the time you could use either, and in a true blind test you wouldn't know the difference in terms of wind noise reduction.

 

What differentiates the Rycote Cyclone is consistency of performance - 3D-tex is a far more reliable material than fur and does not suffer the same manufacturing and longevity problems. And, most importantly, the Cyclone gets round the severe drawback of a suspended and "dressed" basket design, such as the Piano (and Rycote's older designs) - access to the microphone and the ability to strip it in moments to a bare suspension.

 

For many users this convenience, coupled with top-rate performance and a level of engineering that far surpasses any other windshield developed so far, will be the clincher. But if your personal preference is for a Cinela, a Rode, an old Sennheiser design or a piece of foam and duct tape, neither I nor Rycote are going to deter you or rubbish your choice.

 

Chris Woolf

Back in 2015 the cyclone really looked quite different from today's material design. 

I'm curious about wind tests that were done with the new cyclone, how do they compare to the swinging and "on-location-wind-situation" of the old cyclone?

How does it compare to the cinela? 

 

[Markus]

On 2/13/2015 at 1:11 PM, chriswoolf said:

If you want to see some real  differences between the Rycote and Cinela products I'm happy to share some other measurements with the group.

 

These were carried out using a pair of CMC641s - one naked and the other covered by a windshield. The one in the windshield was artificially lengthened to make it sit as a short rifle would. I only used 641s as they were well matched throughout their frequency range and polar pattern.

 

I used real hardcore wind - out on moorland and away from traffic, trees or any other noise source. The mics, on studio stands, were pointed upwards to prevent momentary wind direction confusing things. The wind was very strong - on a couple of occasions it simply blew the stands over. It was the sort of conditions when a news or docco team would have carried on but nobody else would.

 

Each channel was recorded simultaneously with a stereo mixer and 2-channel recording as a .wav file. These were then analysed later (in more comfort!).

 

The black horizontal trace on the attached file is a reference one - the two CMC641s transfer functioned to each other. The flatness of the trace gives a measure of the reliability of the comparisons. The other traces are also transfer functions - a bare mic to a covered one, and thus take account of the variability of the wind at any moment. Gains were left unaltered throughout, and great care was taken to prevent limiting at any point.

 

The dark green trace is a Piano, the dark blue trace is a Cyclone, the pale green is a Piano with its long fur, and the pale blue trace is a Cyclone with a Windjammer. I'll leave you to work out which windshield works best.

 

Note that all the windshield traces show some low level spiky behaviour. As far as I can tell (simple listening and other methods of analysing what's happening) the source is low-level whistles on the mic stands - everything was singing in this sort of wind. You don't see it on the reference trace because the quiet whistles are totally swamped by the wind noise.

 

That is an important point to note. With the massive level of wind noise reduction and the high transparency of a Cyclone people are hearing things they didn't realise were there before. It is akin to the change from transformer to electronic output on microphones - some users found it disconcerting to hear the increased and less distorted bass response. They started noticing the weakness in the suspension systems they used... which was why Rycote spend so much effort improving them.

 

Chris Woolf

I wonder what the test would look like with the new cyclone compared to a cinela from today.

Have there any tests been conducted? 

Just curious if the results are any different, since this has been done like 5years ago