Marc Wielage Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Too funny... I've heard this lament from editors too many times before! Courtesy of editor Chris Bové on Facebook. (And before anybody protests, we've all been on shoots where we've asked to record roomtone and been overruled by AD's, UPMs, even directors.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I have recently talked to a sound editor at one of Germany 's premier audio post studios. We were talking about a film we had both worked on and I said to him that getting room on this particular production had been difficult, because of the many reasons they come up with for us (mostly time). He said to me that it didn't matter at all, and in fact he doesn't require any roomtone at all, because he has this tool (Izotope, I believe), that will more or less automatically take a piece if background from a take and create a loop out of it. I'm not quite at the point yet where I'd forego roomtone altogether, but thinking about it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hayter Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I have recently talked to a sound editor at one of Germany 's premier audio post studios. We were talking about a film we had both worked on and I said to him that getting room on this particular production had been difficult, because of the many reasons they come up with for us (mostly time). He said to me that it didn't matter at all, and in fact he doesn't require any roomtone at all, because he has this tool (Izotope, I believe), that will more or less automatically take a piece if background from a take and create a loop out of it. I'm not quite at the point yet where I'd forego roomtone altogether, but thinking about it +1 I have been told this too. I will still do tone but only if there is something particular in the sound of that space which I think will be useful to the editors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I ask for room tone if it's unique and/or likely to go away at some point and/or louder than the ambiance the sound editor will install later. It's very hard to ask for room tone, and even harder to get a few seconds of silence. So I usually mark my report and tell the script supervisor to put in her report if there's a few useful seconds within a take somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Having a director on your side can help even if you don't get "properly announced" roomtone. A director can say, "aaaaaaand action", or he can say, "and - - - - action". That moment between "and" and "action" is the only moment where everybody is silent without explicitly being told. Most time, an editor needs just a few seconds to get over some squeak. In noisier locations, always request proper tone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze Frias Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Having a director on your side can help even if you don't get "properly announced" roomtone. A director can say, "aaaaaaand action", or he can say, "and - - - - action". That moment between "and" and "action" is the only moment where everybody is silent without explicitly being told. Most time, an editor needs just a few seconds to get over some squeak. In noisier locations, always request proper tone. +1 I've found that this portion of the take - between the slate sticks and the director calling action -, produces the best, most usable room tone. It just matches the takes perfectly with very little / no effort. Room tone that is recorded after any particular set-up or scene is done has the risk of the sound of the room being different from different possible factors, not to mention how hard it is sometimes to get everyone to stay quiet for any "significant" period of time (30+ secs.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 time between 'roll sound' and 'speed' is in your control... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Of course with today's post tools it's not necessary, but the roomtone discussion to me is also a bit about "drawing a line in the sand", as Walter Sobchak would say. You can also get rid of buzzing lights in post, or humming ACs, and you can turn crappy reverby roomy dialogue into something less terrible, but how much of our integrity will we give away because post might be able to fix it easily or they might probably put music underneath the scene? Where will it end? I'm not old enough to be old school, but sometimes I do like to do things old school (my hat's off to the real old schoolers here), use a slate, record roomtone (at least sometimes), get the set quiet, get the dialogue clean. Even though it might get easier and easier to fix all those little things later. A bit romantic maybe and one should not overdo it but it just feels better at the end of the day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Tarrant Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 +1 RPSharman. Getting tone is always a problem on set these days. I've found that many directors are approachable to the idea of not calling " cut " immediately and letting things roll for a few more seconds. Sometimes the camera dept gets on board and continues to roll as well or sometimes they quietly cut camera....either way you usually end up with some useable tone and everyone is happy . I always note these nuggets on the sound report and have scripty make a note as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 I ask for room tone if it's unique and/or likely to go away at some point and/or louder than the ambiance the sound editor will install later. It's very hard to ask for room tone, and even harder to get a few seconds of silence. So I usually mark my report and tell the script supervisor to put in her report if there's a few useful seconds within a take somewhere. This is exactly what I have resorted to doing, too. And I do try to ask directors to pause a bit in the beginning, or even better, at the end, like Peter was saying. This really works best, as long as the director remembers. Some have a tendency to forget quickly. I'm not so sure about the time between "roll sound" and "speed" is the best moment, as it can still be noisy then, and I have found that more abd more ADs are using this to get the crew to quiet down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 21, 2015 Report Share Posted January 21, 2015 Of course with today's post tools it's not necessary, but the roomtone discussion to me is also a bit about "drawing a line in the sand", as Walter Sobchak would say. You can also get rid of buzzing lights in post, or humming ACs, and you can turn crappy reverby roomy dialogue into something less terrible, but how much of our integrity will we give away because post might be able to fix it easily or they might probably put music underneath the scene? Where will it end? I'm not old enough to be old school, but sometimes I do like to do things old school (my hat's off to the real old schoolers here), use a slate, record roomtone (at least sometimes), get the set quiet, get the dialogue clean. Even though it might get easier and easier to fix all those little things later. A bit romantic maybe and one should not overdo it but it just feels better at the end of the day. I agree with the standing your ground part of it and I'm not even sure it's all that romantic. It's a necessity to get anything done at all. But with roomtone, especially when it's recorded at the end of shooting a scene that involved several setups, I know that my roomtone is unusable, so I'm not really moving the work to post, I am simply not providing something they don't need. By the way, right after my post above I got a call from the editor on my current show and he asked for more roomtone! He even acknowledged that audio post won't need it, but he does for the early pre-post screenings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 t sometimes I do like to do things old school (my hat's off to the real old schoolers here), use a slate, record roomtone (at least sometimes), get the set quiet, get the dialogue clean. Even though it might get easier and easier to fix all those little things later. A bit romantic maybe and one should not overdo it but it just feels better at the end of the day. Fixing things in post might easier today than a few years ago. But it still is NOT easier than doing it right in the beginning. You don't need to fix something that isn't broken. Lots of today's on-set issues result from someone being lazy, like placing a ballast right under a lamp next to talent. The higher the budget, the less things like that happen. But: the lower the budget, the less chance of proper post... You might not need a slate, you might be able to fix noises in post. But what about an actor who isn't focused because of all the disturbing noises, or crew chatter even when action is called? I'm not so sure about the time between "roll sound" and "speed" is the best moment, as it can still be noisy then, and I have found that more abd more ADs are using this to get the crew to quiet down That's the ADs that don't know their job. See the part about focussed actors (and crew) above. It should be: "Quiet please - roll sound - rolling", and NOT: "roll sound, roll camera, slate, and...action...oops, and quiet please". Not because of us sound guys, but to let actors focus on their jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Very true, Peter, except it is for the sound, too, because it's often the first time that we are able to actually "listen into the room", for any additional problems Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 actually "listen into the room", for any additional problems Which ideally happens during a... (gasp!)... rehearsal. Old school indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Which ideally happens during a... (gasp!)... rehearsal. Old school indeed. We all know how it's done "ideally", but even if there is a rehearsal, straight after there is often still a change in lighting, props and whatever else. Also, actors very often don't take off their warm jackets for rehearsals, even indoors, so I can't check their lavs. The latter has nothing to do with roomtone, but these are all things that can come up in take 1. And with a Red the rehearsal is not all that useful anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 I lay awake at night dreaming of the days we used to have rehearsals... and quiet sets... and the respect of the crew... and directors who actually know anything... So while I'd love to offer chunks of room tone all the time, you'll just have to join me in my dreams :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngooch Posted January 22, 2015 Report Share Posted January 22, 2015 Not for dramatic work but twice it has come in handy when we recorded room tone and the camera operator( shooting single system) shot the mic at the same time. Year later when the producers wanted to record more wild lines that matched original they went to the video clip of the room tone to identify the mic. At least the boom mic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crussell Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 If you're interested, here's the technique to create artificial room tone. http://designingsound.org/2013/07/unlimited-dialog-airfill-to-fill-your-every-need/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombackus Posted January 29, 2015 Report Share Posted January 29, 2015 The new Izotope RX4 has what is called "Ambiance match" in it. I have used it before and it works very well. It is kinda like using ProTools Strip Silence only backwards. It pulls out all the dialog and strings together the ambiance in between the words. You might have to make a few small adjustments afterwards but it does a great job creating a room tone from a line of dialog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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