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Nagra Stories Sound-men won’t ever tell


JBond

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@tourtelot this process is called Sound on Sound. 

 

In this episode they are using the Nagra for playback only, and I wouldn’t be surprised if the actual sound mixer on set threaded it like this to avoid the actors accidentally erasing the tape? Although the playback was clearly added in post, so it could just be done wrong and nobody caught it. 

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My vote is that the Nagra was setup by prop people, and the PSM had nothing to do with it. 

 

YES!  That home-brew overdub technique was how I made my earliest sound pieces.  The secret?  A plastic spoon over the erase head!  Yes, you very much had to figure that the earlier passes were going to be dulled, but it did work in its miserable way!

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4 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

My vote is that the Nagra was setup by prop people, and the PSM had nothing to do with it. 

 

YES!  That home-brew overdub technique was how I made my earliest sound pieces.  The secret?  A plastic spoon over the erase head!  Yes, you very much had to figure that the earlier passes were going to be dulled, but it did work in its miserable way!

 

And you could get good at it and predict the outcome, and dub in the things you want more present at the end. Pretty cool sounding when done right!

 

 

Does anyone have access to NCIS s16e5? Two of my III’s were used in it, one as principal and one as stunt!

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  • 1 month later...

Another Nagra Rarity 
The first Known, Nagra III Pilot model serial number 61 1245 on eBay now and has been for the last few weeks.
Looks like Germany’s Telefunken Nagra III units were the first to have the pilot models in early 1961. Not 1962 like all  known Nagra information states about the NP model.
So, I guess Hollywood recordists were not the first in history to use the NP Nagra Models. Why did Germany need a Pilot Model in 1961 before anyone else? 

I say early because according to my Nagra serial number database below - look where the highlighted model fits in. Its also the first Telefunken Nagra I have seen with a readable serial number and No its not a different set of serial numbers for the Telefunken Nagra’s, still consecutive numbers.  Nagra did not sell many Nagra III recorders per year in the early years.  Also note it still has the "B" reference not NP on the serial number plate.

 

The mysteries of the Nagra continue… 


phA8F7d.jpg

5JE9evK.jpg

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Another Telefunken on eBay, serial P 62 1725 N Pilot Model
But this one the serial number is in the correct year for the NP. As you can see highlighted it still fits in my database within the correct years for a Pilot, further proof serial numbers were the same consecutive numbering whether Telefunken or Nagra machines. The blue arrow shows the first known Pilot Nagra, branded Telefunken.
I could be wrong, but to date, no one has shown me a serial number out of sync with the years Nagra produced. 
 
That's a cool name, TELE FUN KEN I wish I knew the story behind them and Nagra. It's clear, the USA was not Nagra’s first customer base, even with the so-called Commissioned By JFK’s SN. The Nagra SN was first sold in Europe. The SNST many years later was the US model.

 
 

LUfALFD.jpg

 
 
BW3IpAg.jpg
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  • 2 months later...

Good day Mr Bond, allow me to present my credentials. This is my Nagra III PHO 67 11469, in case you haven't seen this one before. I bought from the USA in 2011, and  it's running well, though the record head will need replacing soon. The other picture is a stash of Nagra III heads I saw for sale on Ebay recently. Which leads me to ask, is there any significant difference between the Nagra III heads with white epoxy and the heads with grey epoxy? As you can see from the picture, the white record heads have two blue flying leads, but the grey heads have blue and black which means they have a definite polarization. Is there some electrical difference here? I think the heads went from white to grey with the 1965 model, and I'm wondering if this coincided with the changes in the oscillator circuit; the later machines had a series of taps on the oscillator coil that allowed the bias current to be adjusted.

 

Thanks for this fascinating thread. I don't have much to add to the Nagra stories. I did a little film and TV sound work in the Eighties with the Nagra IV and IS, but the Nagra III is my favourite.  

nagra3pho67.jpg

nagraheadswhitegrey.jpg

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On 8/20/2019 at 12:59 AM, JBond said:

That's a cool name, TELE FUN KEN I wish I knew the story behind them and Nagra.

 

They supplied German broadcast companys with 1/4 inch studio tape recorders from the 40's until the 90's. Absolute standard, it was hard to find anything else. Maybe some Studers. 

 

Not about Nagra, but general info:

https://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/history

 

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On 10/24/2019 at 4:14 AM, suebutcher said:

Good day Mr Bond, allow me to present my credentials. This is my Nagra III PHO 67 11469, in case you haven't seen this one before. I bought from the USA in 2011, and  it's running well, though the record head will need replacing soon. The other picture is a stash of Nagra III heads I saw for sale on Ebay recently. Which leads me to ask, is there any significant difference between the Nagra III heads with white epoxy and the heads with grey epoxy? As you can see from the picture, the white record heads have two blue flying leads, but the grey heads have blue and black which means they have a definite polarization. Is there some electrical difference here? I think the heads went from white to grey with the 1965 model, and I'm wondering if this coincided with the changes in the oscillator circuit; the later machines had a series of taps on the oscillator coil that allowed the bias current to be adjusted.

 

Thanks for this fascinating thread. I don't have much to add to the Nagra stories. I did a little film and TV sound work in the Eighties with the Nagra IV and IS, but the Nagra III is my favourite.  

 

Thank you, Suebutcher looks like you have a nice clean Nagra III there. As for the heads, other people may know for sure that I think will post the answer to your question.
 From your post you know much more then I do about oscillators bias current and stuff, way over my head. 
Before getting to the oscillators part of your post I would have said the heads were probably produced at different times and they just ran out of blue wire.:mellow:
But I'm glad you posted it because many people private message me questions and don't post them instead. When someone messages me its one on one and most times I don't know the answer. When you post it here on Jwsound you could be asking thousands of people for the answer. Instead of just me. 
Thanks for enjoying the thread. I enjoy people like you posting and adding questions and pictures to the thread. I hope someone can answer you soon so you can buy the right one.

 

 

 
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On 10/26/2019 at 5:59 AM, Mungo said:

 

They supplied German broadcast companys with 1/4 inch studio tape recorders from the 40's until the 90's. Absolute standard, it was hard to find anything else. Maybe some Studers. 

 

Not about Nagra, but general info:

https://www.telefunken-elektroakustik.com/history

 

Thank you Mungo

I appreciate you posting that. 

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Sue Butcher: Regarding the colours of the Nagra III leads I have just checked on a set of schematics for the III, and it seems that the head with the black/blue leads are the "original" recording head. My drawing is from 1957, so I guess that it must be the first type/proto type combination. There is no indication that the head is polarized per se, but it might be that an overzealous engineer had felt that the phasing of the head could be important. On the photo of the eBay heads there also is a (white) head with red/red wires; that seems to be a playback head, but again with identical coloured leads. The "original" heads had red/blue leads.

 

Unfortunately I don´t have a later schematic of the III, it could be interesting to see the colour configuration there...

Nagra+III+schematic.pdf

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On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 7:38 AM, JBond said:

 

Thank you, Suebutcher looks like you have a nice clean Nagra III there. As for the heads, other people may know for sure that I think will post the answer to your question.

 

Thanks. I'd say this Nagra used on a desk indoors, there's head wear and scratches on the paint underneath, but little damage elsewhere. Since it's a PHO Pilot model, I'd guess it was in a transfer suite where location sync recordings were transferred to magnetic film for editing.

 

I took a chance and bought one of the record heads from the vendor as the price was good, and I got a "white" head with two blue leads. It's physically and electrically identical to the "grey" head in my machine (for technical people, DC resistance 2 ohm, inductance 3.6mH). Perhaps Kudelski changed to grey epoxy just so the other heads would visually match the new dark grey ferrite erase head?

 

16 hours ago, dela said:

Sue Butcher: Regarding the colours of the Nagra III leads I have just checked on a set of schematics for the III, and it seems that the head with the black/blue leads are the "original" recording head. My drawing is from 1957, so I guess that it must be the first type/proto type combination. There is no indication that the head is polarized per se, but it might be that an overzealous engineer had felt that the phasing of the head could be important. On the photo of the eBay heads there also is a (white) head with red/red wires; that seems to be a playback head, but again with identical coloured leads. The "original" heads had red/blue leads. Unfortunately I don´t have a later schematic of the III, it could be interesting to see the colour configuration there...

 

Hi Dela, are sure that's a 1957 diagram? It has the same bias circuit and head wiring colours as my 1967 recorder. With the level of pixellation in the document, the "57" in the date might actually be a "67". (Even though 12.2.67 was a Sunday!) 

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Quick index to select posts, click the blue links below

 
42   Jeff’s movie list                                                               307   Nixon Resigns  Picture                                    
364   CIA the Second Recorder                                            455   Nagra II  Video                              
146   Meet Jeff (Youtube)                                                      319 New The Nagra JBR  updated  Feb 2018      
373 New The Nagra Story, updated  Feb 2018                478   The Third Covert recorder   
151   My Nagra VPR-5                                                                                                        
400   The Nagra SN  (Copy )                                                 479   The 1966 Covert recording
220   A different kind of Soundman                                     333   A Special Gift                                                   
404    There’s only One, Nagra I                                           480   The Fourth Recorder
225   What I found out about the Nagra I                            335   The Nagra DH Difference                               
405  Great Nagra Collection  “Vienna Collection                482   Finally Fifth and Final Recorde
232   Conversation with Stefan Kudelski                             337   The Yellow Recorder                                         
422   An appropriate answer                                                 430   What happened to - Serie Noir?
252   The First Nagra III                                                         347   CIA issued Recorder                                       
425   Early Nagra SN serial #’s                                              363   Dating & "New" Reverse Record
268   The Sony and the Telefunken                                      790   GREAT Nagra III Collection by BGAULLIER     
952   Earliest Known Nagra III  by PiO                                  576   The Nagra IS Differences  by DELA 
 #27  Senator Mike Michaels interview                                 681  1st 1959 Nagra III  by Antonine 
922   Jwsound gets Attention from Nagra Audio                 154  Marilyn and the 1960 Nagra III Video                
962   The Gold SN - Test                                                         466  Video -  Movie Sound Effects   
282   1969 Zuiko 1st Microcassette video      906  New The Nagra SN Series - from Prototype to Production 1960 -1971 to 1999        
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Thank you JBond  --- fantastic list! I don't know how you do it, all that indexing. I have thought about and experimented with some way of doing major indexing for the whole site  ---  so many people have requested this as an enhancement to the site, a good searchable archive by subject or various other parameters. JWSOUND has been active since 2006 and there is truly a wealth of valuable information contained in the thousands of posts that make up this site. The Search routines, vastly improved on this site over the years, is still not too terrific but is helpful for people searching for a specific topic.

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 27 March 2020 at 2:16 AM, JBond said:

Anybody remember this song? What were you doing in 1978? To think all you had was an analog Nagra to use. What Nagra could you possibly be using when this song came out? I guess it could have been any one of them. 

 
 

 

Sure I remember Baker Street, who doesn't? I also remember the desk bought off the proceeds of the song, and later bought and installed in our studio where I was tape op - a 1980 Soundcraft Producer Series. Yep, I used Gerry Rafferty's old desk!

 

Jez

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  • 3 weeks later...
Heads up - Maybe a run on Nagra's coming soon. A lot of people from Europe are selling off their Nagra items during this Global pandemic. 
Good chance to pick up a couple of nice clean Nagra’s at some really discounted prices. 
Better get yours before the price skyrockets during these very tough times. You don’t want to be caught Nagra-less.
So,……….  I guess a wave of inflation is coming next.  Thats a scary thought. Let's hope not.
 
 
 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=2&_from=R40&_nkw=nagra&_sacat=0&_sop=16

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If you check the list, right now many of the ads are from the same German seller, and his prices are certainly not discounted. If his prices were realistic, I would be a very, very rich man... Unfortunately/fortunately they are not, and it seems that eBay is increasingly flooded with Nagra gathering dust there; unsellable due to the unrealistic prices. 

 

I would love to see the German sellers collection though; I guess that he doesn't sell much, but he sure has some interesting machines.

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Yes very unrealistic, that is why I posted them. I was trying to be funny with sarcasm about the run on Nagra’s during a pandemic. 
As if that’s the first thing on people's minds and Narga’s and prices are now skyrocketing. Maybe it was the wrong approach on my part.
  
Hard to understand who he is trying to sell to at this time in history. I guess if someone has so much money it doesn’t matter if it’s 2,000 or 20,000. I think most of us do not understand how wealthy some people are and the amount of money at their disposal. Just because someone has 500 million dollars does not mean they would not want a high-end Nagra collection. He does have a lot of rare ones probably bought them new.

 

I have always said there are large Nagra collections out there that we will never see.


The problem though with these high-end sellers is they don’t care if they sell or not. 
These prices cause other eBay sellers to list their recorders higher than they normally would. 

If anyone, not familiar with eBay wants to see what Nagra's sell for, just click the completed auctions on that same page down on the left side.  Here is the same link with the sold prices.

 

 

That is what Narga’s sell for, green means sold. 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=2&_from=R40&_nkw=nagra&_sacat=0&_sop=16&rt=nc&LH_Complete=1
 

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