Jump to content

Nagra Stories Sound-men won’t ever tell


JBond

Recommended Posts

18 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

For actual recording work, esp on distant locations w/o support: Nagra.  For cool-factor and hipness: Stella.  Ditto for the Stella mixer vs any other small mixer ever made. 

Having owned both I must agree. But wow, the AMI 48 was the ultimate in cool, not much headroom, though.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Jim Rillie said:

Having owned both I must agree. But wow, the AMI 48 was the ultimate in cool, not much headroom, though.

 

Ours became mostly an exhibit when the techs of the video house I worked at discovered those potted modules and refused to work on it.  And it needed work, often.  Yes, not great headroom, but way cool looking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Dela!
About 1 year ago I bought a Stellavox SP7C recorder in Italy, This is a modification of the stereo. But the block of heads is mono. It is good that the heads are not red, they are more modern - silvery. The condition is very good, from below all the boards were in place and it looked good and clean. The seller said that it does not turn on ... I agreed and bought a recorder for ridiculous money! As a result, I have a stereo recorder in good condition that won't turn on. I haven't figured it out yet. Perhaps I can give it to the master for testing according to the scheme. But without changing the board modules, it will not be possible to understand the malfunction. It has a steel drive belt. Is it better to replace a steel belt with a rubber drive belt?
I'm not sure if it will ever work, but its ridiculous price ... The SP8 model, even the mono version, is certainly better than the older SP7!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know the feeling; apart from that I got mine for a very reasonable price, I had the same problem. The SP7 electronic design is actually quite simple, and there are ways of quickly locating the problem, but it require som knowledge about electronics. If you want it, I can try to help you along, but if you are not familiar with electronics, I would advise you to find a person to help you. He/she doesn´t need to be an expert, but it would be very helpful, if I could make suggestions for measurements and you (or your helper) can answer back about the results...

First a comment about the belt: The steel belt is a crap idea. It is noisy, and I have replaced it with a Nagra belt, which actually fits nicely. I also bought a "replacement belt" on eBay (from USA), which was way too inflexible, and the motor had to struggle quite hard. So the Nagra belt stayed in.

 

When you say that it won´t turn on, does it mean that it is completely dead, or is it "just" that the motor isn´t running? This is important to know, since the supply voltage is regulated in the SVS module, so if everything is dead, the problem is around that module. If the electronics are working, but the motor is not running, it could be the SMU module, which have a tendency to get defective.

 

You can send me a message (or an email) about your findings, because it might not be interesting for others to read about Stellavox problems in a Nagra thread...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/1/2021 at 8:27 PM, JBond said:

 

Its Your story now.

The last Nagra I, number 25, that was, but never made it to his hands. 

 

Thank you srs148 for chiming in with the facts of this story instead of just my endless speculation. This story is now dedicated to you. I will place it in my directory on page one.  Seriously, I feel bad you were so close.

 

Oh man, that must have been a very long two days.  Like I said, who tries to make an item look worse when they re-list it other than doing it for the previous buyer that just got cheated out of it.  The guy had a lot of gall to tell you one thing then list it again so soon. You must be a very easy-going guy. But really, what could you do? 

 

I'm glad I didn't get as far as you did by winning the auction, paying for it, only to be told he didn't "feel comfortable" selling it to you. That would definitely be too much for me to take.  SOOO close and still got away. You win that prize.  If it makes you feel any better, it was a Historic sale and you were part of it. 

 

 I'll bet the seller already had the firm offer of 20K before he sent you your money back and he listed it again maybe because the buyer just wanted to make it legit or safer going through eBay.  

 

If the seller had any conscience at all, he must have been going through a real tough time in those two days sweating bullets in what to do about that offer.  But for 20K on an item he wanted 400.00 for, could any one of us make up a clumsy friend who always dropped stuff?  I would not want that stress either way in this situation. But in real life, the seller probably made the right decision, sorry for your loss. 

 

 

JBond, it was my pleasure to shed some light on what went down.  I think I'm more disappointed I didn't get a link on the directory page than I am that I lost out on purchasing the Nagra I :). 

 

As you suspected, I too had a sinking feeling when the seller told me that he was 'out of town' that he had, in fact, already been contacted by someone who was interested in purchasing at a much higher price.  Or at the very least been informed by someone that he sold it far too inexpensively because he had literally just posted it for sale when I purchased it, yet he was out of town? 

 

It didn't make sense to me that he'd post the listing while away and not when he had the gear right in front of him.  So to answer your question, yes, it was a long two days.  I'll admit that I did check the email on my phone probably a lot more frequently than I normally do (which is already too much).

 

Despite my initial frustration and disappointment with the situation, I also agree that the seller made the right choice.  If I were him, I wouldn't have left that much money on the table, either.  I just would have handled it differently.

 

As I'm sure you know all too well, disappointment comes along with the territory of being a collector.  Like yourself and Dela, I am also a Nagra collector, having over the past few years a good amount of Nagra gear, almost all of it their more common equipment.  I'll eventually sell off some of the duplicates so others can enjoy them and keep the cleanest pieces for my collection.  I think the rarest piece in my collection is the Nagra MX 4-channel mixer.  I acquired that more recently, so I see that as a nice consolation prize for missing out on the Nagra I.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, srs148 said:

JBond, it was my pleasure to shed some light on what went down.  I think I'm more disappointed I didn't get a link on the directory page than I am that I lost out on purchasing the Nagra I :). 

 

Yeah srs148, I know it's a big deal coming so close to having a chance to get on JBond's front page directory sorry about that.  Many men have tried. I'll figure it out someday. 
Not sure if that's the best analogy to losing the last Nagra 1 ever made that was worth 20K though. 
Kidding, I know you were saying it in jest.
I thought I knew Nagra's pretty well, what is this Nagra MX-4 channel mixer you speak about? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only 10 Nagra MX mixers were made, and they were apparently made as evaluation samples. It was a small 4 channel (2 Mic + 2 line) mixer, and it was made to the same quality standards as all other Kudelski products. The problem was that it was a bit hard to figure out what to use it for: It was a 4 ch. mixer but only 2 mic. inputs, making it effectively a 2 ch. mixer, since you hade very few line sources on a set. If you should have line sources, they couldn't be controlled from the front, since there was only two controls, controlling the mic. input gain. All other settings and adjustments were made on the top side of the mixer, under a plastic lid. That made it a 2 ch. mixer, completely unusable for bag use and thus it didn't have any real world use (since it was too limited for using on a cart). At the time it was released people were beginning to require more channels, and for quite some years SQN had made very good and practicals multi channel mixers for bag use. So the MX was floundering in the middle of a no mans land... As a kind of gimmick, it could record, but only in 16 bit/48 KHz, making it only suitable for preview files, not as a primary recorder. Fortunately they quickly found out that it was a fundamentally flawed product. and cancelled it. A bit later they launched the EMP, which was more focussed on being a high quality mic preamp, and it was quite practical if you had a Nagra IV and wanted two more mic. inputs...

 

So the MX is a great little mixer if you needed a quite special feature set, but for universal use, there were better and much cheaper solutions...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks, Dela, sounds even more interesting once I got to the point of the plastic lid, the first thing that came to mind "Stellavox" does anyone have a picture? I wonder if this was before or after Stellavox was selling their cool mixer?  dela you always come through with a world of well-explained information,
Thank you, Sir.

 

After I just wrote that reply to dela I did another search and this time I found it, funny the first time I did a search it tuned up nothing but Sony MX, I guess I gave up too soon. I see now it's well after the Stellavox mixer. Still pretty cool and a must-have for a collector. 
That would be a good piece to add to any Nagra collection Looks expensive and with only ten made you did well srs148 Now there is only 9 left.
 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I know where one of the other MX´s  are... Fortunately I am sure that all the test users knew that it was well worth keeping it, so they are probably out there still...

 

I am not sure when it was released, but I guess that it was about 2006-2008 (the EMP came in 2011). But the design is a bit similar to the Stelladat, which was a bit earlier, but with the same top plate with controls, covered by a lid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 6/11/2021 at 1:29 AM, dela said:

Only 10 Nagra MX mixers were made, and they were apparently made as evaluation samples. It was a small 4 channel (2 Mic + 2 line) mixer, and it was made to the same quality standards as all other Kudelski products. The problem was that it was a bit hard to figure out what to use it for: It was a 4 ch. mixer but only 2 mic. inputs, making it effectively a 2 ch. mixer, since you hade very few line sources on a set. If you should have line sources, they couldn't be controlled from the front, since there was only two controls, controlling the mic. input gain. All other settings and adjustments were made on the top side of the mixer, under a plastic lid. That made it a 2 ch. mixer, completely unusable for bag use and thus it didn't have any real world use (since it was too limited for using on a cart). At the time it was released people were beginning to require more channels, and for quite some years SQN had made very good and practicals multi channel mixers for bag use. So the MX was floundering in the middle of a no mans land... As a kind of gimmick, it could record, but only in 16 bit/48 KHz, making it only suitable for preview files, not as a primary recorder. Fortunately they quickly found out that it was a fundamentally flawed product. and cancelled it. A bit later they launched the EMP, which was more focussed on being a high quality mic preamp, and it was quite practical if you had a Nagra IV and wanted two more mic. inputs...

 

So the MX is a great little mixer if you needed a quite special feature set, but for universal use, there were better and much cheaper solutions...

 

Thanks, Lars, for providing the bit of history about the Nagra MX / MIX.  I'll eventually post a few pics of mine here.  It is a very nice piece of gear, though as mentioned, not particularly practical based on its design.  I feel like this was Nagra's more contemporary take on the Cooper Sound CS104 or of a Sound Devices 442, though perhaps not implemented quite as well. 

 

It would have been interesting if Nagra would have iterated on the layout and features of the MX to the point where it would have been fully productionized and perhaps been a competitor to the Sound Devices mixers.  Who knows, maybe they would have stayed in the game longer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...
  • 2 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Hello all,

Sorry for my delay. I recently got a 4.2, and I love it! But I would greatly appreciate some advice, as my knowledge of tape is very limited.

According to the serial number lookup, my model is from 1973. I read most of the 1991 manual upon purchasing and learned some, but not all.

 

1) What kind of tape should I buy?! Is it bad to use old tape?

 

2) Is it bad to have the tape up against the heads all the time? In other words, each time I wish to take a day+ break in my recording, should I fully rewind, and upon coming back, FFW to the part of the tape I left off at? Surely all that FFW'ing can't be great for the heads? Alternatively, I could open the pinch roller arm during storage, but the manual said this would cause a flat on the Capstan Shaft O ring. (That does not make sense to me... I'm including the relevant passage from the manual.)

 

3) With my purchase, I was given the power pack pictured. Can I be sure that this power pack is sufficient? The manual mentions the danger of a reversed polarization supply. Can anyone say whether or not I'm good to use the one I was given? (Speed and power indicator DOES show a white segment and machine APPEARS to function perfectly when I use this power pack.) (I'm including images from the 1991 manual.)

 

4) I have observed that my 4.2 looks different than later models. Different knobs, no playback head shield, different lid latch I think? Is there anything I should know about having a '73 model specifically? How else does it differ from the later ones?

 

5) In general, do you think I got a decent specimen?

 

6) Does anyone have a lid they'd be willing to sell?!

 

If you don't mind I might ask a few more... thank you very much for helping me out. Here's some nice pics in return!

 

 

 

 

Here's what they say about the capstan shaft O ring:

 

1-pinch-wheel.png

 

 

Here's the power supply info:

 

 

3-power-pack.png

Same thing again:

 

And the danger I had mentioned:

 

5-danger.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Congratulations with your 4.2; it is pretty nice, and it seems well kept. It is an early version, which is why you don't have the later upgrades/additions (head shield, tape counter, identical knobs, ruby tape guides). It is also without the ALC (automatic level control) circuit, but that is almost never used anyway. If you look for a new lid, be aware that the early models used a rotary latch, while the later models had a dual push lock. Lids are not interchangeable between the two types of locks.

 

Regarding your questions:

 

1) The recommended tape type depends on what it it is calibrated for. I can't remember the tape type, but I think that the manual states what tape type it is biased for. I will check... You can use old tape, but beware of SSS (sticky shed syndrome); it is not harmful to the Nagra, but you will inevitably have very bad results. And you will have to clean the tape path constantly.

 

2) You can leave the machine with the tape on, as long as you make sure that it is in "Stop" position. I that position the pinch roller is lifted a bit from the capstan, so there will be no harm in leaving the tape on as long as you want.

 

3) The power supply you have is perfectly fine; it is an old Apple Powerbook supply, and its 24V is a good compromise between good winding speed but no arcing on the function switch. If the Nagra runs with the power supply it is correctly polarized.

 

4) The main differences between the older and newer models, apart from the cosmetic things,  are the later (or optional) ruby tape guides and the head shields. Both are nice to have: The ruby guides are far more durable than the older all-metal guides. Apart from that, all 4.2 units are just about identical, regardless of age,

 

5) Apart from missing the lid it seems to be in good shape. I can't make out the pinch roller colour; if it is brown it is the neoprene type, which is very, very durable. If it is black, it is made of rubber, and they can sometimes get hard and brittle. But if it is OK now, it will probably stay OK. One of the things to look out for is the motor; it should  run smoothly and quietly; it shouldn't "knock" or rumble. If it does that, it will probably need a new motor bearing. Theoretically the drive belts could also be worn, but normally the 4.2 has neoprene belts, and they rarely need to be replaced.

 

You should open it up and enjoy the look of the interior. To open it, you just loosen the two large screws in the speaker end (just loosen it, don't unscrew it completely. when that is done, you can open it up and enjoy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for the response! I'm very glad that you told me the lids are not interchangeable.

 

I also appreciate your answers, those were very helpful. I think I have a rubber pinch roller, and the motor runs nicely. I have opened it up actually! I will add those pictures at the bottom here.

 

I've been told my mic preamps are QPSE and QPM 3-5 (but missing a piece...) - do I have any options when it comes to getting 48V power for a condenser mic?

 

Lastly, if anyone can recommend good new tape to buy, I would be grateful.

IMG-2577.jpgIMG-2582.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your machine seems well kept, but I am wondering about the black belt on the take up reel; I would guess that it would have been replaced together with supply reel belt (which is the newer neoprene type). The black rubber belts have a tendency to get a bit loose, where the neoprene belts rarely fails. But it I is not loose, it is completely fine.

It seems to be manufactured as a pilot enabled recorder, but the pilot boards have been taken out. Now I think about it, I have never seen a non-pilot 4.2, so it might be that they always put in the head, even if it wasn't pilot enabled. But again it is quite rare that you would need the pilot option, unless you record sound for film/video, where lip sync is all important.

 

With these preamps and without the phantom supply, there is no easy way to use 48V microphones directly on the recorder inputs, but with a simple (and cheap) phantom injector it will probably work. How the microphones will respond to the input impedance of the input (meant for dynamic microphones) is another matter. I guess you will have to try it...

 

Regarding the tape type, I can see now that it is biased for BASF 468. Unfortunately I am not well versed in current tape types, so I can't help you on more current options...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a note about the manuals warning about leaving the tape control lever in the Open position for long durations: It sounds a bit cryptic, but the O-ring that the text refers to, is an internal rubber ring on the capstan/tacho disc. When the lever is in "Open" a metal wheel is in contact with the idler wheel (the disc with a rubber ring as outer surface), and that may make a dent in this O-ring. This dent will make winding a very noisy and bumpy affair, since the idler wheel rotates quite fast, so that is to be avoided...

 

But the moment you go into Stop-mode with the function switch, it is safe to put the machine aside for any amount of time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hello Mr. Bond, and everybody,

First of all, excuse me for my bad English

My name Andras, I’m from Hungary. I collect “battery operated” reel-to-reel recorders. I have more than 300 pieces, but to be honest most of them are simply commercial or toy products. But of course, I have several professional field or cover recorders like Nagra, Stellavox and Sony too.

There are two reasons, why I’m writing: First I’d like to say special thanks for your post in 2016 about Evershed T.704. After that I managed to buy one, also from Argentina. 😊

Second: As I had worked long time in Russia, I have many Russian recorders, even almost all of the soviet professional field recorders.

So, I think, that the Ritm reporter, posted in November more similar to Stellavox, than to the Nagras, but there is a bigger soviet recorder, from the same factory: the Ritm 320, which one much more similar to Nagra IVs.

Earlier there was a recorder, which was the exact copy of a Perfectone, and another one a copy of the UHERs.

I wil try to post the mentioned recorders. If you are interested, I can post the photo of the other Soviet, Hungarian, Polish and East-German field recorders

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Quad,  Welcome to Jwsound Nagra Stories. I'm glad you posted. I'm sure I speak for others as well, I would love to see you post some pictures of your collection of tape recorders. 
 Even the toy recorders, I'm always interested in seeing different recorders, especially ones I do not have or know about. 
I'm glad my Yellow Recorder Story allowed you to find and acquire one for yourself. I'm wondering if yours also had the yellow mark on the recorder also? I look forward to seeing your collection and more posts from you.  Do you also have the tiny Russian covert recorders like my American covert recorders? There are a few of Russian recorders I would like to add to my covert recorder collection if I ever get the chance. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...