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Nagra Stories Sound-men won’t ever tell


JBond

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On 10/24/2020 at 10:10 PM, Philip Perkins said:

Well, we DID have Big Drinks the day Nixon resigned.....

 

 

If what you say was the general feeling Philip, then it's a good thing I had the bottle of scotch in the picture, more true to form.  Look's like the unseen agent had BIG drinks also.  I was going to say I drank the bottle trying to get those f-ing cigarettes to smoke on their own. The cigarette would not give off enough smoke to show up in the picture. 
 
Did you know you have to puff on a cigarette to light it and get it to smoke fairly well?  Can't just hold a match to it in the ashtray. Even then, after puffing, very little smoke after you put the cigarette down.


I ended up using some model train smoke oil to keep it smoking so the camera could catch it. 

Did you know if you put just too much or too little Christmas tree smelling train oil on a cigarette either it bursts into flames or it won't light at all?  Let's just say I lost a lot of 30-year-old (newly opened) vintage cigarettes that day.
 
A big learning curve on capturing sitting cigarettes giving off smoke.  I should have drunk the scotch.
The house all smelling like ashtrays and burnt Christmas trees.   And I don't even smoke!! 😡
 

In the end as much of a hard time I had with the cigarettes, I do think the smoking cigarette adds life to the picture and puts it in the moment.  

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi,  I was wondering if anybody could help with this.   I just bought a Nagra E and the sound is only recording and playback on the left side.   I know the unit is a mono, but should not the sound be in the middle?   Is there something I'm missing?  Thanks, Aidan

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How do you know, It's only recording on one side?
There is only one output speaker on the Nagra E, so it works as it should. 
 
Or, If you mean you want to add the output of the Nagra E to a stereo, if so you have to output to the input on both channels of the stereo.
 
Or, and most likely you mean it's only recording on one side of the tape?
The Nagra E is not a full track recorder. You have both sides of the tape to record on, in mono.
 
Or, Maybe I'm the one missing something here. 
 
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On 11/4/2020 at 4:53 PM, Halo said:

Hi,  I was wondering if anybody could help with this.   I just bought a Nagra E and the sound is only recording and playback on the left side.   I know the unit is a mono, but should not the sound be in the middle?   Is there something I'm missing?  Thanks, Aidan

In the middle of what?   Your headphones? 

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  • 2 weeks later...

There must be hundreds of channels in play here--I see small mics on individual string instruments, each BU singer with a handheld and so on.  Whoever put this on really put a lot of resources into it, and it sounds really good....except for the piano.    Gary Brooker used to play a real grand piano in PH live shows.  These guys had a whole orchestra+drum kit+rock band playing live, why have a flat-sounding digital piano?   The fidelity of the other instruments, esp the Hammond and the drum kit, just slaughter the sound of the piano.

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13 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

except for the piano.    Gary Brooker used to play a real grand piano in PH live shows.  These guys had a whole orchestra+drum kit+rock band playing live, why have a flat-sounding digital piano?   The fidelity of the other instruments, esp the Hammond and the drum kit, just slaughter the sound of the piano.

I said the same thing about Eric Clapton’s 1994 album “From the Cradle”

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 3 weeks later...

Hello, JBond. I just read this entire thread start to finish. I can empathize with your reaction when someone re-re-re-posts already-debunked historical claims that they've found somewhere on the Internet--thus adding to the seeming consensus for what sometimes are completely spurious tales. I'm doing a long-term project of historical research for a microphone manufacturer that's just a few years older than Kudelski SA, and the frustration that I experience can be similar--including that the company itself has sometimes given out incorrect information about its own past products.

 

But that shouldn't be a great surprise. At a busy company, no one has time to do the kind of research that would be needed. As long as people are still around who know how things really happened, no one generally asks them, writes it down, checks the information out, comes back with follow-up questions and so on. It's usually only afterward that anyone tries to reconstruct what, by then, is no longer part of the available "institutional memory". And that reconstruction of history takes much more time than people realize--while still leaving many questions unresolved and perhaps, unresolvable.

 

--I've lately been using my Nagra IV-SD for playback of concerts and Conservatory classes that I recorded on it in the 1970s. That's the non-sync, wide-track (narrow guard band) version of the IV-S. The deck's electronics were modified by the late Franklin Haber, an independent sound engineer in NYC. During the pandemic I've been transferring as many as possible of my old analog recordings to digital--but that's proving to be rather difficult where the open-reel recordings are concerned, since back in the 1970s and early 80s I used Ampex 406/407. It has to be "baked" first in order to play it back without its destroying itself; I'm just learning how to do that properly.

 

I also own a Nagra SNG recorder, a model that you haven't mentioned here to my knowledge. Each of the SN recorders had two speeds, and for the non-stereo versions there were two head configurations as well. The SNN (the 3-3/4 ips version with 1-7/8 ips as an alternate speed, as used by film sound people) recorded full-track on the 1/8" tape, while the slower-speed versions (SNS and SNG) had half-track heads--still mono, of course. But the ultra-miniaturized electronics didn't allow for separate bias and record EQ settings for the two speeds that each model offered. So each recorder could be optimized only for one speed or the other, via record amplifier cards that differed for each of the three possible speeds. The SNN was thus optimized for its faster speed (3-3/4 ips) and the SNS for its slower speed (15/16 ips). The less-well-known SNG was in-between, in that its record amplifier was optimized for 1-7/8 ips (its faster speed), but it recorded only on half the tape width and at half the speeds of its film production counterpart.

 

I bought it somewhat on impulse from Hayden Labs in England when I was there ca. 1975-76 for an AES convention held in Hammersmith. I assumed that the SNG would perform at least as well as a good cassette recorder, since it was made by Nagra and the tape speed was the same. In fact, though, its sound quality was a great disappointment--especially the very severe flutter. After what I'd paid for it, it took me a while to admit that it was really no good for anything with music in it at all. But maybe Jamie Howarth's "Plangent" process can fix up those recordings some day.

 

--best regards

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David:

 

Nice hearing Frank Haber mentioned. Been a long time since I’ve heard his name brought up. One of the good guys when it came to working with Nagra’s in NYC back in the ‘70’s.

 

Yeah, the SN series recorders had plenty of idiosyncrasies. I won’t even begin to get into the joys of the two competing pilot synchronization systems🙄...

 

-S

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Another one of Jbond's true to life stories.  Only found  here on Jwsound .

Friday night 9:20 my wife and I are looking through movies on Netflix.  One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest comes up.  My wife says oh, let's see that!!  Ok, 52 seconds into the movie, the absolute first # 1 credit comes up "director of photography Haskell Wexler, a.s.c."  I jump up,  spilling my martini … that's Jeff Wexler's father!!  My wife says don't yell, then said, really?!  Yes, that's him! 

 

Just goes to show, you movie guys live on forever through your work.  How many people can really say their work lives on forever?

 
 
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Nice! Yep, that's my father! Not only a great cinematographer, a social and political activist, a  great father. I really miss him  --  made it to age 93 and was still shooting, still making trouble up until his passing in 2015.

Here is one of my favorite photos, on the movie "Coming Home". We got to work together on several  movies, hundreds of commercials and documentaries.

hw.jw.coming home.jpg

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  • 3 weeks later...
Well, I have been a member of eBay since 1998.  I have found a lot of good deals and some very rare recorders.  I don't check as much as I used to, but I do notice Nagra listings daily as a Nagra search on eBay is my home page when I open my computer.  That day Dec. 29th I looked at the completed Nagra items just to see if I missed anything. 
I have never missed such an important once-in-a-lifetime opportunity as I did on the 29th of December.  It was just hanging out there for sale for 3 hrs just waiting for someone to come along and buy it now for 1,000.00.  I missed it by 30 minutes. 
 
I emailed the seller saying if the person who bought it does not follow through, I will pay XXXXXX No reply.  Then I thought about it, it's complete I could clean up the paint make it look real good.
Then I emailed again saying if the person doesn't like it I will pay XXXXXX.  That was on Dec 30th.
Never heard from the seller at any time.  Ok I tried. 
 
Here are some pictures for your enjoyment. 
 
 
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So today I noticed it was back up for sale - this time make an offer. I offered  xxxxxxxx and said please counter offer.  There were already two offers before me.  The seller never contacted me at anytime  a week ago or today so I believe the seller had many, many offers from the first auction other than from me and much higher than I offered.  
Two hours later 
I received an email from eBay saying my offer was declined.  Also, because I made an offer,  the amount that it sold for shows in the upper left of the email.
 
 
 
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 And it sold for $20,000.00. 
 
At least it's better than knowing I lost it for 1,000.00. 
I could have cleaned it up very nicely. 
 
A complete Nagra I, the first time I ever saw one for sale. 
If you followed my posts about the Nagra I, I said I thought I read somewhere they made 25 of them.  Nagra's video says they made about 12 , wrong again. 
This is the first one that I have seen with any kind of serial number 2522 
I take that as out of 25 made, this is number 22.
Sure would have rounded off my collection but my xxxxxx offer doesn't compare to $20,000.00  I always said there are some big time Nagra collectors out there,  with very big wallets. 
 
These pictures were not included in the first auction.  Maybe the seller did this to try and change the buyer's mind?
Or when the seller sold it the first time, he didn't disclose  the corrosion to the buyer as far as I can tell and he took it apart to show pieces and screws are missing.   Both auctions are on ebay completed Nagra sales. 
You decide why the added extra 3 pictures below were in the second auction and not the first. Who tries to make what your selling look worse by taking it all apart?  Most likely the seller knew it would go for a lot of money and wanted to be completely up front.  who knows. 
If I won that first auction for 1,000.00 these pictures below would not have changed my mind in the least. 
20K wow. 
 
Only on Nagra Stories.  
 
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Hey Roger, 

I also saw that listing and made several offers. All declined. Interestingly, the message I received from ebay just indicates that the listing is closed, it doesn't say sold. I don't see it under completed listings.

Not sure if it was sold, was removed, or was a fake listing altogether. I also tried to reach the seller through a few messages and had no replies.

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 Definitely, a legit email from eBay.  I have seen many times that an item does not show up in completed sales if it is too close to a previous sale of the same item same seller. It may show up later,  but when it does it will not show the price of what the item sold for It will just say best offer accepted, that is the norm.
 
If it was a scam auction I would not have received a legit email from eBay and a link to follow.  There is more to the email that eBay uses to let you know it's a legit email that I can show online.
If I click on the link in the email (to see similar items)  it brings me to this. 
 
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Then click on view original item  
 
It brings you to this. 
 
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Then click the completed auction the 1bid  next to the price it brings me to this , showing best offer accepted and shows the fake buyers id but real number of feedbacks not the buyers ID. 
 
They never show the amount sold because it allows the buyer to resell the item without letting people know what they paid for it. This buyer will have a very hard time making a profit if indeed he follows thru and pays the 20,000.00 The only scam in this case would be the buyer not paying the 20,000.00  
So maybe it will be relisted again if that is the case.  Someone could have been very frustrated with the seller not accepting his many bids and said screw that and bid 20K  knowing he is not going to pay it.
 
 
So if you did make an offer you should have all the information that I do.  Unless the part of the world where you live eBay has to follow different privacy laws.

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And If you click the blue title it will open up and show the description and pictures.
That is the only place right now where to find the item. 
 
 
A scammer copies the same original auction because that is all the scammer has to go by.
 
This second listing has 4 or 5 more pictures, and a updated description.  How would the scammer get the extra pictures of such a rare item taken apart?
 
It's real !! no scam, Did you get and email saying your bid was canceled and item was sold ?  if so follow the same steps above to view the item.
 
 
 
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Thanks Roger. Perhaps here in Canada, we are not permitted to see the selling price of $20,000 only that 1 bid was made at $400. I received a reply message this AM from the seller and they indicate that the item sold and is not relisted. As you've noted, the high offer may have been one of the many ghost offers that doesn't ever materialize as a completed payment for the seller. In any case, it was an interesting piece and one I was particularly interested in.

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  • 3 weeks later...

 

I completely understand the uncontrollable excitement, but wow, I would never man handle the Nagra SN with such dirty hands. 🙂

 

I have made boxes for things I was that excited about since I was a kid.  It's like so beautiful and you can't really enjoy it enough, so you build a special box to keep it in.  I completely understand why he built the box.
Probably some kind of sickness we have, though I never built one before for any Nagra because I have my display case to show it off.  He did end up giving the Nagra SN the utmost respect it deserves by building that special box. 
As I said 5 years ago when you could get some Nagra SN's for under a grand, "the Nagra SN will be the most sought-after reel to reel that was ever made, mark my words" as you're starting to see in the prices they now sell for.
 
Thanks Mono for posting that , Wow, 5.39M subscribers he makes some serious money. 
 
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  • 3 months later...

I'VE JUST LEARNT ''A LOT'' ABOUT EARLY NAGRA 111'S , BY READING THE ABOVE.

I'M RESTORING A '67 ; JUST COMPLETED A '68. NO PICS, BUT I HAD ONE ETCHED ''PRILLY LAUSANNE'', WHICH I SHOULD HAVE KEPT. I WORKED IN SOUND TRANSFER FOR = TOO LONG=  BUT ON A TERRY AND JUNE SHOOT I NOW  AM FAMED FOR BEING A ''TV TRAINING'' OUTAKE AS WHEN POLLING I FALL BACKWARDS THROUGH A ROSE BUSH !.. JUST CHANGING MY NAME BACK TO WHAT IT SHOULD BE ''PATRICK LEE'', YES ALSO WKD AT LIME GROVE ON NATIONWIDE

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/7/2021 at 10:24 AM, JBond said:
 Definitely, a legit email from eBay.  I have seen many times that an item does not show up in completed sales if it is too close to a previous sale of the same item same seller. It may show up later,  but when it does it will not show the price of what the item sold for It will just say best offer accepted, that is the norm.
 
If it was a scam auction I would not have received a legit email from eBay and a link to follow.  There is more to the email that eBay uses to let you know it's a legit email that I can show online.
If I click on the link in the email (to see similar items)  it brings me to this. 
 
A scammer copies the same original auction because that is all the scammer has to go by.
 
This second listing has 4 or 5 more pictures, and a updated description.  How would the scammer get the extra pictures of such a rare item taken apart?
 
It's real !! no scam, Did you get and email saying your bid was canceled and item was sold ?  if so follow the same steps above to view the item.

 

hi, I'm checking in here months late, but I can tell you that this was a legit listing.  I was the original winning bidder - I made an offer to the guy, far below $20k, but above the listed sale price of $400 (I think eBay shows you only the starting price, not the accepted offer on completed Buy Now with Offer sales).  In any event, the seller accepted my offer and messaged to tell me he would ship three days later when he returned home.  When he told me that, I knew that he would eventually cancel because other eyes had no doubt seen it and would alert him of it's rarity.  So I was waiting for a cancellation message to come.

 

Sure enough, two days later, I received a cancellation and refund via eBay / Paypal.  The seller sent a message saying that his helper had dropped the Nagra I handling it and 'some wires had come loose' so he didn't feel comfortable selling it to me in that condition.  Of course, I repeatedly messaged him saying that I'd take it as-is and had no concerns with its actual operating or physical condition.  He stonewalled me and re-listed it several days later.  That was truly 'the one' that got away.

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On 1/6/2021 at 5:51 PM, JBond said:
These pictures were not included in the first auction.  Maybe the seller did this to try and change the buyer's mind?
Or when the seller sold it the first time, he didn't disclose  the corrosion to the buyer as far as I can tell and he took it apart to show pieces and screws are missing.   Both auctions are on ebay completed Nagra sales. 
You decide why the added extra 3 pictures below were in the second auction and not the first. Who tries to make what your selling look worse by taking it all apart?  Most likely the seller knew it would go for a lot of money and wanted to be completely up front.  who knows. 
If I won that first auction for 1,000.00 these pictures below would not have changed my mind in the least. 
20K wow. 
 
Only on Nagra Stories.  

 

Its Your story now.

The last Nagra I, number 25, that was, but never made it to his hands. 

 

Thank you srs148 for chiming in with the facts of this story instead of just my endless speculation. This story is now dedicated to you. I will place it in my directory on page one.  Seriously, I feel bad you were so close.

 

Oh man, that must have been a very long two days.  Like I said, who tries to make an item look worse when they re-list it other than doing it for the previous buyer that just got cheated out of it.  The guy had a lot of gall to tell you one thing then list it again so soon. You must be a very easy-going guy. But really, what could you do? 

 

I'm glad I didn't get as far as you did by winning the auction, paying for it, only to be told he didn't "feel comfortable" selling it to you. That would definitely be too much for me to take.  SOOO close and still got away. You win that prize.  If it makes you feel any better, it was a Historic sale and you were part of it. 

 

 I'll bet the seller already had the firm offer of 20K before he sent you your money back and he listed it again maybe because the buyer just wanted to make it legit or safer going through eBay.  

 

If the seller had any conscience at all, he must have been going through a real tough time in those two days sweating bullets in what to do about that offer.  But for 20K on an item he wanted 400.00 for, could any one of us make up a clumsy friend who always dropped stuff?  I would not want that stress either way in this situation. But in real life, the seller probably made the right decision, sorry for your loss. 

 

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Once in a while Stellavox is mentioned as a rival to the Nagra, and I still remember browsing through "HiFi Revyen", a danish HiFi yearbook listing all the available/distributed products and dreaming of one day getting a Stellavox... Since then a lot has happened, but in this context the most important probably was that I became interested in Nagras in stead, and Stellavox took a second seat. But still the comparisons between the two brands made me curious, and late last year I got tempted by a Stellavox SP7 in a dubious state, but for a good price, and I couldn't´t resist it. If nothing else, it would give me the opportunity to finally see what all the fuzz (and the odd harsh comment) was about...

 

I got the SP7 in a terrible state; it had been stored for a long time, so all bolts were corroded, the cover was scratched and it sounded like an angry lawn mower when/if it ran. It soon transpired that there was a lot of faults, and some not just cosmetic. After getting rid of the steel spring belt (replacing it with a Nagra belt), lubricating, cleaning, sanding and polishing, I ended up with a functioning recorder. I thought. Then the motor started cutting out intermittently, and after some experimenting I realized that the SMU motor control module was defective. In a sane world I could take out the module, fix it and put it back in, but in the early SP7 units all modules were filled with resin, making it impossible to fix it. And that gave me the first two lessons:

 

1) If a module fails, you will have to buy another one. You can't fix it without risking to destroy it.

2) Dont expect any documentation is at hand, since Stellavox were quite secretive and kept all documentation to a minimum.

 

After buying a NOS SMU in Canada, I returned to it, only to find out that the motor still stopped intermittently, but this time the entire power supply set out. And again: Look at the SVS module, despair and order a new module, again from Canada. This time I felt sure that I was on the right track, because I made a replacement supply (perhaps better...) and put it in for testing, and it worked fine. Once I got it working, I got (over)confident and bought a stereo headblock. I installed it, and the result was total silence, just with a low crackling. I had been warned by a Stellavox connoisseur that SP8 heads might not be compatible with the SP7, and he was right. Fortunately I could return the heads and get another SP7 headblock. That worked fine, and then I knew:

3) Don´t assume that two Stellavox component are compatible, just because they fit the same connector.

Then, at last, I could make a recording test. It sounded pretty good, but I was wondering about a low hum, which was a bit strange, since the casing is very well shielded and it was running on batteries. It turned out that the in built crystal generator was generating a 50 Hz sine signal, that somehow bled into the recorded signal. When I got rid of the generator, the hum disappeared. And returning to the motor control: I noticed that the speed was perfect at 7.5 ips, slightly unstable at 15 ips and unusable (and still about 15-17 ips) at 30 ips setting. I wondered what was wrong, and I was a bit confused when I measured the motor voltage at different speeds: With a set of almost new batteries, the supply voltage gave almost no headroom for regulating the motor speed at the higher speeds. I remembered that one of the big updates on the SP8 was higher supply voltage (15 AA batteries in stead of 12), and I can understand why: The SP7 is just about useless for running above 7.5 ips on batteries. On an external 20V supply it runs perfectly. Thus the next lesson:

 

4) Don´t assume that there the design is perfect, because it isn't.

 

I am now at a point where I can say that it is getting there, but still I have the feeling that the SP7 more or less is a first version of the SP8. And I have given up upon making the right reel clutch completely silent, since it will involve rerubbering two small grooves deep inside the brake mechanism). So, basically (and I was warned about that from my Stellavox connoisseur friend): 

 

5) Stellavoxes don´t like to be stored for longer periods. They age very poorly, and often quite a few bearings has to be replaced.

 

But am I sorry that I bought the Stellavox? Not for a minute. I have the luxury of not being dependent on it functioning, but it has been really interesting and, believe it or not, entertaining to coax it back to life. It sounds really good, and despite its many quirks, it is a very well built device. One problem that is obvious when working with it, is that Stellavox was a much smaller company than Kudelski, which actually in itself was a small(ish) company compared to most other companies in the field. That meant that Kudelski had larger manufacturing capabilities, and the Stellavox feels more like a piece of hand crafted equipment that the Nagra. For better or worse; some of the weaknesses of the Stellavox are caused by these shortcomings, and the design itself is more idiosyncratic and less thoroughly done than on the Nagras. And it is absolutely horrible to service any component that is not built into a module; it is like they wanted to hide and stuff away the components in confined spaces just for the fun of it. One thing that really stand out is the motor, which is a little marvel: Designed and manufactured completely in-house, and almost flat. The rotor system weighs just 43 g, and it is controlled by a photografically applied tacho pattern. Not as powerful as the Nagra motor, but essential for making it possible to make such a small stereo recorder. On the down side, the Nagra is better at controlling the speed when the recorder is moved around in the rotating plane. But still better than most other manufacturers at that time (or, indeed, later).

 

Operating the SP7 is basically like using a Nagra; there is not much difference there, and it feels every bit as stable as a Nagra. They came upon with a really neat solution for engaging the pinch roller and the stabilizer roller; they are engaged by a small, sophisticated gear system. Which unfortunately won't survive an attempt to operate it manually (thus the printed warning on the top of the SP8), and it also means that when going out of Play mode, the roller will still be engaged, and you have to make a brief Rewind to disengage it before leaving it. Weird, but understandable in some way. 

 

The Stellavoxes has a reputation for being more fragile and quirky than the Nagras, and I must admit that I can se why: The unrepairable modules, that were seated in connectors that were not really optimal for the task, the complete lack of documentation and spare parts, making it necessary to send defective units to Stellavox, the sometimes fragile drive system, the (missing) headroom of the input circuits etc. But still, they are great recorders, and they have a really distinct personality. For better or worse.

 

When you work with it, you feel the different personalities of the designers: Kudelski uncompromising approach, where nothing is left to coincidence, and the equally uncompromising Quellets desire to keep things simple (both electronically and mechanically). The two men worked together briefly (very briefly...), and I think that they both acknowledged that they were just too different to have any real cooperation. But I am sure that they respected each other...

 

I have no real conclusion about which is the better recorder, except that the Nagras are without a doubt more mechanically stable and forgiving... But history made its judgement, relegating Stellavox to extinction. Paradoxically, Georges Quellet is still alive, so he ended up outliving Stefan Kudelski, even though Quellets career was marred by his periodically bad health...

 

 

 

 

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