blue FX Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hi! First off, an introduction: I've been a post mixer for close to 20 years now, recording VO, mixing spots, sound designing, writing custom music...the works. The post house I work at also does full production and while we normally hire a location sound mixer for shoots, we're now looking into a capital investment into some gear and putting me on the shoots as the mixer. We shoot just about everything, from commercials to industrials: interior green screen spokespeople, ENG-style man-in-the-street interviews, specific locations with actors, etc. I've been getting up to speed on all the necessary gear and terminology, have read thread after thread on this forum (especially "show me your bag") and have been putting a list together. I'd love to get your feedback on my plan of action. Our editor is also a shooter and director, so he's got a good selection of audio gear he's going to make available for shoots. Here's the list of existing gear: Lavs: Lectrosonic UCR210D receiver (x2) LectrosonicUM200C transmitter (x2) Boom: Sennheiser MKH416 Windscreen: Røde Blimp Utility Mic: Senn K6/ME62 (omni) Slate: Denecke Smart Slate Here's what I'm thinking to complete the kit: • Sound Devices 633 mixer/recorder • Remote Audio BDS battery distro • 2x NPL-7S Batteries and Charger/Power Supply • side mount boom pole (with C-stand holder) • One Bag To Hold Them All • all cabling for bag interior Since we shoot on everything from D5s to RED to C300, I'm not too sure on what I'll need to get audio to camera for reference. Would it be smart to get a combination of breakaway cables as well as (more inexpensive) camera hops (G3)? And since backups are the key to this gig, what would you recommend as a backup recorder? Or does that involve an entire backup system....like, buy the rig twice or an auxillary stereo recorder, like a Zoom unit? Am I missing anything crucial? Are there things in your bag that you just can't do without because of how they improve your workflow? Looking forward to any and all input. Thanks, folks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I would continue to hire a mixer with the correct equip. And know how.. My .02 There's been a few threads on this... You will be either taking you Normal sound guys job, having you do it for less, or on salery... and creating an equip. Situation that involves purchase...upkeep and storage ... Couple that with a lack of REAL know how on the job and exactly where is the money saved or the situation improved? If anything you will end up on the short end...unless they pay you the same rate as the normal sound guy...again...what's saved..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 "The post house I work at also does full production and while we normally hire a location sound mixer for shoots, we're now looking into a capital investment into some gear and putting me on the shoots as the mixer." Adding to what AFMY has said, if the company you are working for wants you to be their main sound guy and they are willing (or wanting) to purchase the equipment for you to use, I don't see this as a big problem (of course, not knowing your level of experience or proficiency I cannot comment on the decision to have you do the production sound work). You will be faced, of course, with less pay because you didn't make the investment in the equipment. If it should turn out that you are not the one who does the production sound, the company will have to deal with the rather limited selection of sound mixers for the shoot who are willing to do the job without their own equipment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Tirrell Posted February 2, 2015 Report Share Posted February 2, 2015 I will second the part about staying with the freelancer, a good mixer should be a master craftsman in his own right. Just like how I could sweat copper or tinker in the circuit box of my house I hire a master plumber or electrician who has the equipment and experience to get it right the first time, otherwise things can be more costly in the long term. Now if the decision is already made and somebody is convinced this is the thing to do, than I would to start with add these things to your buy list. Time code cables from everything on the market to whatever your mixer/recorder uses. XLR to ta3 cables so you can use the direct inputs assuming you go with the 633.... buy at least 5 so that you have spares. possibaly a 3rd battery- you need to figure out exactly how long you can keep everything powered and recording on one and extrapolate that with a good margin for error. Always own a break away cable even if you have hops (there are situations where being hard wired is always better) High noise head sets for monitoring your audio xlr cabeling at least a couple of hundred feet in various lengths... it adds up quick 3 hard wire lavs or adapter units to power your wireless lav miss in the event you can not run wireless due to a location specific issue..etc. Adapters. a lot of them from everything to everything (XLR to RCA/mini/phono etc. Male to Male/ Female to Female) buy more than one of each these are for timing into other systems not a frequent thing but something you will always want to be able to do. Line to mic transformers, at least 2 of the switchable ones or multiple pares in the non switchable variety. Y cables, (not something I like to use but they can solve a last minute problem fast) That is just the basic list off the top of my head and I am not even touching on the issue of backups and multiple wireless blocks. I am also sure I am missing stuff, like I said earlier there are reasons to go out of house to hire a dedicated op. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 I don't mean this to sound snarky, but as something to consider: Do you think that anyone with extensive location sound experience, but without post chops, could replace you and your twenty years of post experience as easily as you seem to think you can switch disciplines? Then factor in: In the location sound world, on quite a few gigs, many of us bring more gear for Justin than what we use. (Justin Case) Part of being a pro is being prepared for possibilities. Ask yourself, "What would I do if...?" "...If the mixer dies." "...If the recorder stops working." "...If any one of the dozens of cables you need breaks." "...If a mic craps out." "...If the camera person refuses your chosen on-camera solution." "...If it slipped the producer's mind to mention you absolutely had to supply ten Comteks." "...If you need different solutions for each of three camera feeds." ... And countless more of the things that come up on an all-to-regular basis -- and usually during the "heat of battle." With both location sound and post sound, each field takes years of experience to be sufficiently proficient to perform at the highest levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Reineke Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 Having worked a lot in the ENG world prior to film sound, I've have hundreds of adapters, cables, iso transformers and back-ups for back-ups. It would take me more than a day to just list them. Are your upper echelons with the money prepared to invest in all that? Not to mention the knowledge of what may be needed at a moment's notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismedr Posted February 3, 2015 Report Share Posted February 3, 2015 With both location sound and post sound, each field takes years of experience to be sufficiently proficient to perform at the highest levels. i think one of the main differences is that in post you usually have time to double check things and if there are problems you can try a second approach or ask somebody for help, while on location sound there is a lot of time pressure and when things go wrong you sometimes only notice when it's too late. so while it indeed it takes a long time for both to become an expert, it's much easier to completely fuck up on location Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue FX Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks for all the responses so far. Just to make it perfectly clear, I'm under no pretense that I'm going to waltz onto set and perform at a veteran level. I certainly didn't set out to make that impression. The only reason I mentioned my experience was to make it clear that I'm a lifelong audio professional, just like most of you. I've also done about a thousand other different audio jobs in my life, so it's not as if I've been sealed in a mix suite like a mummy for 20 years. Additionally, I'm not approaching this in the way that someone has mentioned: "Do you think that anyone with extensive location sound experience, but without post chops, could replace you and your twenty years of post experience as easily as you seem to think you can switch disciplines?" I never stated that I was switching disciplines, nor did I ever state it wold be a walk in the park. Matter of fact, I'd prefer to NOT be placed in this position on account of the fact that I have VERY limited experience with location sound. It's pretty clear to me that it's a pressure-filled, one-chance-to-get-it-right position and I have a great deal of respect for the people who do it on a daily basis. Hell, I'm the one mixing that audio for final delivery, so I know how important it is. But management has decided it would make sense to utilize me (a salaried staff member), make a capital investment in equipment, and therefore save some money on certain shoots. If you've got a problem with this line of thinking, then your problem doesn't lie with me. I'm merely following through with due diligence to accomplish what management has requested of me. I'm going into this clear eyed, realizing I've got an enormous amount to learn in order to do the job competently. I enjoy taking on new challenges, because "the day you stop learning is the day you stop living." I've respectfully turned to this community of professionals with a vast amount of accumulated knowledge in order to be pointed on the correct path. By all means, please point out the pitfalls. That's why I'm here. But don't assume that I don't know exactly how difficult and complex this approaching task will be. Again, thank you for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thank you for the clarification, blue FX (not thrilled with addressing you as "blue FX" but I'll get over it), I think you have stated your case and your intentions quite clearly; this makes it a lot easier to offer some helpful advice. I think you must realize that some part of the helpful (or not so helpful) advice will include comments about professionalism, possible stupid "corporate" decisions to purchase equipment, etc., you'll just have to live with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Blue, As we learn more about the position you've been placed in, thanks for understanding the position we're in. That position includes the fact that we've seen this corporate "thinking" many times before. Such as: Event 1: Production X comes to town and hires me -- lots of wireless, several tracks, multiple hops, they try hard to negotiate my rate down. We do the shoot -- they're happy with the results. Event 2: Some time later, production X returns to town having made a large corporate investment in top notch gear. Their "labor only" rate can't land them a properly experienced mixer. Several days of shooting results in a mixture of marginal and unusable product. Event 3: Production X returns to town yet another time. They hire me, and my full gear package, this time without trying to negotiate my rate down. Meanwhile, their large corporate gear investment sits idle, gathering dust and cobwebs. Moral: Some companies do learn, even if it has to be the hard way. These are companies that, at some point, realize their final product and reputation are on the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Ray Harris Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 I can actually speak from experience in this matter. I started my career as a post sound editor and production sound mixer. I worked for a post-sound company as a freelance sound editor and because I had learned production audio in school, I was willing to take on small shoots that came along from the editorial companies who were starting to shoot their own sit down interviews and one talent green screen type spots, the idea for them was to stop hiring camera men for jobs that were extremely simple. The post-sound company had already owned a small 2 channel package at the time, (702t, 302, 416 shotgun, and a couple Sennheiser wireless). For about three years I put together a production division from that and we actively sought out production work, often doing the production sound on jobs we would do the post on as well, sometimes packaging it together as a discount to the client. The equipment grew slightly, but never bigger than the jobs we were getting consistently, If a larger job came in, I would do the work but would rent any additional gear. The problem came from the larger jobs, where my labor rate could only go up so much, but I had to manage an exponentially larger amount of equipment and problems, with the rental money going to the company that owned the gear. The benefit to most production mixers is that the more gear, the more money in your pocket, which makes the hassle worth it. Those jobs also tended to go into 12 to 14 hour days, which stings even more if you're salary. I don't know your professional relationship with your company, but you may want to make the point to your employers about what you are willing to do and not do, as this is more work for the same pay. And with that gear sitting and not making money on jobs that they need to hire a full time mixer, they may want to put you in a position that you are not qualified or just not wanting to be in. I've worked with tons of all-in-one-house type companies that spent a mint on a package that just sits, because every time they do a shoot in house, they hire a mixer and he refuses to use their gear. Not just because of the money, because it introduces lots of problems on set. Every time I've agreed to use a different package than my own that was put together by anyone other than a sound mixer, I've been burned. They just never think of the small things, like restocking the batteries for the wireless, or having the right wind protection, or large enough media for this type of shoot. Etc... So keep the jobs small if you want to do it in house, don't make more work for yourself that you won't see a return on. Also, keep the gear package appropriate for the jobs, you can always rent if you need something else, The list you have sounds like a great start, but do not buy the gear expecting another mixer to use it for jobs you don't want to do. If you're not doing the work, that gear sits and makes no money. End of essay. P.S. Regarding the list of gear: 633 records to 2 different media so it is its own backup and a rock solid reliable machine. If you're doing these types of simple jobs, a plain ol' breakaway to camera is fine as an additional backup, also sounds the best. If you shoot multiple cameras and aren't using a wireless just use that as a hop. Everything else is perfectly fine for what you're doing. Crucial stuff missing would be the little stuff: wiring supplies, like overcovers, top stick, moleskine, transpore tape, gaff tape, paper tape, RM-11 mounts, tie clips. A pelican to put all this in, adapters, timecode cables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Really well put, Nick Ray. That essay contains some of the best advice in the entire thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue FX Posted February 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Nick Ray FTW! Nick, your experience runs somewhat parallel to my own so I appreciate you taking the time to relate your story (as well as pass along some great gear advice). More importantly, it highlights some of the major differences between being a freelance sound mixer and a staff member of a production company. Bear in mind, this capital investment would only be used by myself on simpler, smaller jobs. We'd still be hiring a veteran mixer for bigger jobs that fall outside my own comfort zone. And we wouldn't dream of asking someone to stake their hard-won reputation on being forced to use an audio package they've never seen and didn't spec for the job they've been hired to do. After all, it's our company's reputation on the line too, so why would we intentionally shoot ourselves in the foot? And again, I'm the guy who's going to have to do the post mix on these gigs, so it's in my best interest to do the best job I possibly can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 "And we wouldn't dream of asking someone to stake their hard-won reputation on being forced to use an audio package they've never seen and didn't spec for the job they've been hired to do. After all, it's our company's reputation on the line too, so why would we intentionally shoot ourselves in the foot?" +1 This is one of the best statements in this whole thread. Thank you blue FX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Ray Harris Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 Glad to help, just keep tabs on the money you're saving the company when pay raise time comes around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 After all, it's our company's reputation on the line too, so why would we intentionally shoot ourselves in the foot?" I don' t known the answer to this... But I see it day in and day out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atheisticmystic Posted February 4, 2015 Report Share Posted February 4, 2015 ...I've been getting up to speed on all the necessary gear and terminology, have read thread after thread on this forum (especially "show me your bag") ... Blue, you read thread after thread here, and you didn't see this exact thread play out a couple hundred times ? With the same reactions and comments, so common in fact, that at times you couldn't tell if someone was trolling or not Seriously, you'd swear it was one of our own curmudgeonly beloveds having us on ! Glad you got the terminology though, it'll help when your 633 freezes on you in the field. (hint: the terminology rhymes with "clucking bell") Good luck, Bossman ! best Steven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue FX Posted February 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2015 Ha! I probably should UTSF (or UTFSF) a bit more liberally in order to keep from clogging up the board with duplicate threads. Thanks for all the helpful advice so far. If anything, it's the little details I'm most concerned about at this point. That whole "be prepared" thing from Boy Scouts really stuck with me. I'll keep researching this topic based on the info you've all shared so far. Thanks again - I feel like we all won the internet today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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