still useful to record "room tone" and walla on set?

[randythom]

People have asked about whether it's still useful to get recordings of room tone, background voices, ambient sound, etc. on set.  The answer is generally a big YES.  The people who find the room tone most useful in post production, by the way, are not the sound effects editors.  It's the dialog editors.  In trying to smooth out transitions from take to take they need to fade in and fade out the various diverse and ever changing pieces of ambient noise that you guys and gals valiantly try to minimize in your on-set recordings.  The bigger the pieces of each of those kinds of "noise" they have to work with, the better.  Chances are that if you can get the crew to be "still" for fifteen seconds then that will actually translate into two or three seconds of real stillness that will be useful.  Yes, there will be times when this kind of recording on the set will not be used, but the problem is that there is no way of knowing which those will be.  Background voices are often extremely useful, especially for big crowd scenes that will be difficult to simulate in post.

We all know how difficult it is to get ANY good recordings on film sets, especially sound effects, but collecting sounds in addition to principal dialog on movie sets is still VERY useful to the people in post.  Nothing about the "digital age" has changed that fact.  If any assistant directors dispute that notion, please have them give me a call:

Randy Thom

Director of Sound Design

Skywalker Sound

415-662-1300

Randy

[Izen Ears]

  This is great and confirms all my impressions.  What about off-screen lines and overlaps?

  I always try to only ask for what wild sound I need, that way I can actually get the set to quiet down completely.  (If I were asking for tone every setup folks wouldn't cooperate.)  So I ask: is there ever an instance when you don't need roomtone?  What if all shots had several good takes clean without background or overlaps, then do you really need the roomtone?

  Dan

[randythom]

Hi, Dan!

In those rare, extremely quiet locations where there is essentially no room tone then it's probably a waste of time to record it.  The kinds of locations where you need room tone the most are the ones in which the ambient noise changes over time (which, of course, is most locations).

Overlapping dialog is still a potential problem, so it's best to get separate coverage of each actor whenever possible.

And yes, it's very important to prioritize your requests on the set so that you have a better chance of getting the ones you need most.

best,

Randy

[John Coffey]

Hey Randy:

I was recently discussing a director here (Lev Spiro) who yells out "Cut the camera, but keep rolling sound" at one or more angles in almost every scene for room tone.  Never had to go through that political nonsense of begging the AD for it all the time, even once,...seems it should just be an obvious part of the film school curriculum of Directing 101.

John Coffey

[BVS]

I still do room tone for doco interviews and various locations that are very specific in their ambience and impossible to recreate.Always good to get a bit of rain on the roof if it happens during a shot.

It's just a habit picked up over the years and having been a sound editor and rerecording mixer on many features,you know you be able to use it somewhere.

Brian

[John E. Walker]

I love the idea of "Cut camera, but keep sound rolling."  That's really the time when the crew is most attentive.  It might take a few times to get everyone in the new groove.  I say that because I know how few times people actually remember not to cut when we intend to tail slate!  Getting a bit of tone for every take sounds wonderful for post.  I've spoken with directors before production to count to at least three between "Marker" and "Action" and between the moment he wants to say to cut to actually saying it.  It also gives picture editors a buffer zone, but it may be viewed as wasteful.  "Cut camera, but keep sound" rolling is a good compromise.

So good to hear room tone encouraged from Randy Thom.  I admit, there was a time when I felt like room tone was a joke, because it was like pulling teeth to get the crew to cooperate.  Also, I can't prioritize when I don't know what the set-ups will be until they happen.  How many times have you gotten a shot-list that didn't change?  There can potentially be many, many room tones, one for each microphone position.  Sometimes if the surroundings are distinctly noisier from one direction, I will choose to aim the boom straight down for all the coverage (placed just above and front of the speaking actors, of course), so that the background will sound the same.  However, I'm a proponent of getting options for the editors.  So other times, it seems like a better idea to get one actor really clean and the other the best I can making use of the null area to calm down the offensive noise.

John E.

[FSBELLA]

Hi, Dan!

In those rare, extremely quiet locations where there is essentially no room tone then it's probably a waste of time to record it.  The kinds of locations where you need room tone the most are the ones in which the ambient noise changes over time (which, of course, is most locations).

Overlapping dialog is still a potential problem, so it's best to get separate coverage of each actor whenever possible.

And yes, it's very important to prioritize your requests on the set so that you have a better chance of getting the ones you need most.

best,

Randy

Randy,

just to clarify, do you suggest or need room tone after every setup? or is it after every "new deal" or moving on to the next scene?

[old school]

Hard to argue the value of room tone, any is better than none when possible. In the commercial world where I practice my craft, room tone may have a little less value than with film n tv because of the rug of music and smear and VO that are on most commercials. Even the shitty sound I sometime deal with turns out ok on tv. Seldom do the words I record stand alone like they can with film. Even so I try to make it as cuttable and clean as possible and get room tone and wild track when possible. I like to roll long as well as use my 10 second pre roll. The post roll seems to have more room tone than pre roll.  We, (my boom n I) roll on what many think of as MOS shots cause no one is talking, or we are 48 fps, etc.... but we will do it until we have enough of value. We also record rehearsals for wild trk and get out of many BS wild track sessions with the writer and creative and actors in a cramped room or Moho that will never be used. Not enough, but we try. I have also been known to stay after they call lunch and get fx or room tone, but not that many times because as everyone knows, "Crew eats first....".

CrewC

PS I am all for Lev's method for room tone.

[Sergio Sanmiguel]

I respect Crew's philosophy on this one... And also practice it.

[joecrabb]

One trick that I find often works with not too much grumbling from the crew is to ask for roomtone BEFORE we shoot in the new location. When the AD yells "Moving on!" everyone jumps to start the next set up and getting people to stop and be quiet can be a seriously tough task. But ask everyone to shush right before we get the first shot is easy and if you start it as a precedent early on in the shoot, everyone just kinda falls into the pattern.

[randythom]

I'd say the best way to figure out when some tone would be useful is to listen.  Listen to a take or two from the previous setup, then listen to what you're picking up from the new setup.  If the ambient noise is different, then it would be a good idea to get some new tone.

Lev's approach to getting room tone is excellent.

Randy

[Richard Ragon]

seems it should just be an obvious part of the film school curriculum of Directing 101.

John Coffey

The trouble.. the huge amount of people that keep showing up in Hollywood that have NO film school curriculum or directing 101.

-Richard

[RPSharman]

Good point, Richard.  I always get funny looks when I ask for room tone with the wired actors on their marks, or at least pretty close.  A brief explanation will usually suffice.  Room tone in the room, or outside space, is not useful if it does not match the scene.

Generally I do not get room tone, only because when I really need it I want to be sure I am taken seriously.  I will often note on my sound report if there is a good few seconds of room tone on a specific take, especially if I know it'll be useful.  Typically, if I understand it correctly, the noisier the environment the more useful ambiance can be, especially if the noise is practical and only in parts of the coverage, as Richard's A/C issue illustrated.  But I will yield to the experience of Randy, who I am VERY excited to see here.  Please tell us more.

On the kind of sets I work on, I have found that room tone before the camera roll is useful.  Once "cut" is spoken, or often when the actor's last line is uttered, the noise on set increases.  Before the take, I find a greater willingness to be silent, if only for a few seconds.  The AD is usually willing to give a "roll sound for room tone.......roll camera" if I don't ask too often.

Robert