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kavenzmann

M/S Stereo setup (Sennheiser KHM418 upgrade)

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Hi,

hope this topic is more than a double from what I already read from other threads...

Working on a documentary for the next month, I want "better" sound in many ways. Since today, we use a Sennheiser MKH418 on a boom plugged into a SD702. We only used the mid, when voice was on the important side but mostly used the side signal for enhanced room experience.
We already did two feature length films with this setup and liked the handling very much. The sound was always nice, but not breathtaking.
We always found the stereo experience to be somewhat limited and "tight".
When recording very quite environments I didn't like the noise floor, too.
FYI: We use lavs for interviews, too, when needed.

I was using a Schoeps CMC6/MK41 combo lately and used them instead the mid signal of the MKH418 in a M/S test setup. I was really impressed with the low noise and much better off axis response. What a difference especially in quite environments! I tested the Sennheiser MKH 8060 lately with a comparable experience in terms of noise and off axis response, but a much narrower/more distorted stereo image of course.

Here's what I want now:
- MS setup with low noise and "switchable" mid signal (e.g. cardoid indoors, shotgun outddors)
- stealthy setup in a small rycote stereo shockmount/windshield
- price should stay around 2k...



I found some possible setups:

- Sennheiser MKH8060/8040 for the mid signal (can buy them used at an attractive price)

>> seems to be sensitive to handling/wind noise (MZF8000!) but is small, leigthweight and has a very nice sound, high sensitivity + low noise !! 

- Schoeps CMC6/MK4 + MK41 for the mid-signal

>> silky sound, low noise, small + leightweight, mid sensitivity, no shotgun available, expensive

- Ambient Emesser ATE208 as figure 8

>> I have never used this personally, but this seems to be the only small single diaphragm figure 8 beside the expensive Schoeps MK8

- Kortwich 8 as figure 8

>> double diaphragm figure 8, there is zero experience with this mic, kortwich told me that they tried to match the MK8 with a better noisefloor and therefore used a double diaphragm, they developed this as Sennheiser has no figure8 for the MKH8000 series, kortwich will send me one for test purposes

Any input welcome, as there seems to be very limited experience in such a specialized tool...

THX

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Plenty of information on this. Just do a search. Has been discussed previously in other threads. There are many options it comes down to personal preference and also easy of getting various mics. My choice is Mkh 30 with mkh 40/8040

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- Schoeps CMC6/MK4 + MK41 for the mid-signal

>> silky sound, low noise, small + leightweight, mid sensitivity, no shotgun available, expensive

What do you mean "no shotgun"? Schoeps make one of the nicest shotguns available.

Also consider their CCM series, if small is really important.

Neumann also make good sounding mics, incl. Fig. 8.

in the end, you will have to try them out to make your own decision

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- Schoeps CCM41 (or CCM4) & Schoeps CCM8

- Schoeps CMIT5U & Schoeps CCM8

- Sennheiser MKH 50 (or MKH 40) & Sennheiser MKH 30

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- Schoeps CCM41 (or CCM4) & Schoeps CCM8

- Schoeps CMIT5U & Schoeps CCM8

- Sennheiser MKH 50 (or MKH 40) & Sennheiser MKH 30

 

very nice 2 mic setups, and all well below 2K :)

 


Here's what I want now:
- MS setup with low noise and "switchable" mid signal (e.g. cardoid indoors, shotgun outddors)
- stealthy setup in a small rycote stereo shockmount/windshield
- price should stay around 2k...

 

joking aside, getting 3 mics (shotgun + cardioid + 8 + possibly wind shield) with this price limit means having to make compromises. 

each of the top mics will be 1-2K by itself, so even when you're buying used gear on a bargain you'll still end up with 2.5-3K (without wind shield).

also if you really need stealthy, the 8060 and DPA shotguns are probably the high-end choices, but the former can be difficult to handle in doc projects (for me anyway) and i have no idea how the latter matches with a (which?) figure 8.

 
short story, i'm not sure if there's a lot of benefit of getting three independent mics over using the 816 at this price point... you could try a used MKH 416 + MKH 50 + Kortwich 8 i guess, better mid and possibly ok side. 

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I tried several MS setups and in my opinion, the Schoeps CCM 8 is the best 8, because of his small size. It is also less sensitive to handling noise, than the MKH 30 or the Neumann KM 120, which are in the same price area.

 

I use an MKH 60 or MKH 50 + MKH 30 and I do have to use an Ambient Floater to reduce handling noise during booming. 

 

by the way... In my opinion, the Neumann RSM 191 is one of the best sounding MS Microphones, but I am not sure, if it is the right choice for documentary work (external matrix box, sensitive to RF influence and moisture as I have heard and also sensitive to handling noise)

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With ms you definitely want to go with cinela options. Yes your 2k price point seems very unrealistic if you want something that will last a life time.

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Great input so far!

The price limit... It did seem realistic till yesterday, as there were some used mics available for me. 8060+8040 incl. MZF8000 for 1400,-.

BTW I'm counting Euros here!

I know that the MKH30/40 and the Schoeps CMC64/CCM8 combos are nice and approved.

They are just out of my budget.

I'm ready to make some compromise, but like a low noise floor, small size und more than average off axis rejection oft the mid mic. ;)

I thought the MKH8000 series are just perfect for this.

The Figuren 8 can't be a Senni vor Schoeps - to expensive.

But I read that the Emesser ATE208 (second Version!) and the latest Kortwich Figuren 8 are very well built and constructed here in germany. Most people say they are best value for the price (ca. 600).

Any experience with this two guys here?

BTW I am aware of the limits of M/S, but don't want to accept the problems the integral design oft the MKH816 delivers. The shotgun is nice when there's action in the middle of the frame, but the stereo field needs a brighter pattern in most circumstances, especially inside in small rooms.

That's why I want a shotgun and a cordoid (same system prefered), which will be combined with a figure 8 for more room experience. As a plus, I'll use the cardoid/figure8 combo for "serious" stereo athmos.

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first post..

It's weird, but I'm reading this on Tapatalk and this is not showing. I re-read the original post several times, and I just can't see it. Maybe I'm going crazy. Anyone else here on Tapatalk who can't read just thr one sentence?

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I had just a very short time with the Kortwich 8, and I don't know the Emesser at all, so I wouldn't want to judge them. What I heard from other people varies greatly.

As I said above, you will have to try out all options and find the best one for you.

And I'd still suggest the Schoeps CMIT as a mid mic, and overall general purpose mic

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The price limit... It did seem realistic till yesterday, as there were some used mics available for me. 8060+8040 incl. MZF8000 for 1400,-.

BTW I'm counting Euros here!

 

very good price indeed... 2 complete mics and 2 MZF8000? sounds almost too good to be true.

 

 

I'm ready to make some compromise, but like a low noise floor, small size und more than average off axis rejection oft the mid mic. ;)

 

I thought the MKH8000 series are just perfect for this.
 
they are great mics, i was considering them myself because they are far cheaper over here then the old MKH and i liked the small size too. tested them in a INV7-MkIII and found them very difficult in regards to handling and wind nois, so bought the old ones instead. but then, i'm not a professional boom operator, so it might be just my clumsy hands.
 
 
The Figuren 8 can't be a Senni vor Schoeps - to expensive.
But I read that the Emesser ATE208 (second Version!) and the latest Kortwich Figuren 8 are very well built and constructed here in germany. Most people say they are best value for the price (ca. 600).

 

Any experience with this two guys here?
 
 
unfortunately never tried them but you should be able to rent them from kortwich and ambient and test if they work in the combo of mics you're planning to use. i'm a big fan of discussing gear on the internet but found in the end nothing beats testing things yourself ;)
 
chris

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Never got to like the mzf8000 filter especially for ms mkh30/8040 Used it on my standalone 8050 for interior for a while and then ditched the filter and went with a better suspension. Never been happier.

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Never got to like the mzf8000 filter especially for ms mkh30/8040 Used it on my standalone 8050 for interior for a while and then ditched the filter and went with a better suspension. Never been happier.

 

 

yeah, i compared it to the SD633 HPF and a tact!c cable once.. 

found the SD633 more useful than the MZF

the tact!c sounded ok too, but a friend with years of sound mixing experience (mainly music) frowned upon it within seconds and i trust his ears much more then mine. he liked the SD HPF too though.

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Never got to like the mzf8000 filter especially for ms mkh30/8040 Used it on my standalone 8050 for interior for a while and then ditched the filter and went with a better suspension. Never been happier.

What is your better suspension?

Was hoping for the rycote lyre setup to be sufficient...

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What is your better suspension?

Was hoping for the rycote lyre setup to be sufficient...

I can't remember the post title but I'm using and Invision 3. Small piece of shrink on the lyers and really light weight female xlr on back. I want to say dpa xlr but not sure what it is.

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I think I'm starting with a mkh8040 sdc first and add additional 8050 super cardoid and 8060 shotgun later.

Regarding size and price, I'll check the Ambient ATE208 first and the Kortwich 8 as the figure 8 after.

Which windshield are you using with the mkh8040 being the mid in your m/s setup?

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Hi Kavenzmann,

I have the 8060 in a rycote ws2, with a bit of modding I'm able to fit a MS setup in there.

I've made a connectionbox were I can remove the figure 8 and cable since I don't use it all the time.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea:

 

The fig8 mic is an MBHO (they also manufacture the emesser).

 

*(note the lyres are configured for a different setup)

post-8292-0-34056300-1426171655_thumb.jp

post-8292-0-53829400-1426171673_thumb.jp

post-8292-0-34056300-1426171655_thumb.jp

post-8292-0-53829400-1426171673_thumb.jp

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Hi Kavenzmann,

I have the 8060 in a rycote ws2, with a bit of modding I'm able to fit a MS setup in there.

I've made a connectionbox were I can remove the figure 8 and cable since I don't use it all the time.

Here are some pictures to give you an idea:

 

The fig8 mic is an MBHO (they also manufacture the emesser).

 

*(note the lyres are configured for a different setup)

 

Very helpful! Exactly what I was looking for.

 

I really can't find a figure 8 on MBHO website. Where's that from?

Also like the way you build it together in a small setup. I know that

kortwich makes similar cables.

 

Is the figure 8 really shielded enough in this setup? I thought I'll need

the bigger 14cm diameter rycote shielding solution...

 

Can you share any examples?

 

THX

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Check out a previous topic called "Rycote Windshield Kit for MKH8040/MKH30 M/S Configuration". Its in the equipment section. Will have some interesting mods to do what you want.

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Great info.

 

But honestly, I was hoping to be able to cramp my setup into a WS10 or even WS9 rycote kit.

The 8040 with a right angle XLR + ATE208/Kortwich 8 is a very short combination.

Used in conjunction with the small XLR right-angle cables and special connbox , I should be able to put them

in a WS9...

 

That's also why I'm not interested in these normal sized microphones like the MKH30 or the AKG.

They introduce the need for a huge windshield, which I don't want.

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