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XY AND MS STEREO,HOW AND WHY?,WHAT MIC COMBINATIONS?


soundwiz

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Hi

i am starting to work on a short feature and was reading about recording ambiances so naturally got me to XY and MS stereo techniques

I would like to know what is the difference between them?

why do you use one technique over the other?

what are the situations that call for either?

what mic combinations are used for each setups?

how do you deal in the post with each recording?

which is most popular, if thats a term

what setups do most fellow pros use here?

well thats a lot of questions, being pretty new to this i had to ask them

Thanks in advance to all of you

cheers

Hari

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Hi

i am starting to work on a short feature and was reading about recording ambiances so naturally got me to XY and MS stereo techniques

I would like to know what is the difference between them?

why do you use one technique over the other?

what are the situations that call for either?

what mic combinations are used for each setups?

how do you deal in the post with each recording?

which is most popular, if thats a term

what setups do most fellow pros use here?

well thats a lot of questions, being pretty new to this i had to ask them

Thanks in advance to all of you

cheers

Hari

MS= mid-side.  In XY one uses two microphones with their axis' crossed and their capsules as close to each other in space as possible.  They are a "coincident pair".  The two channels are recorded separately, as Left and Right.  In MS the standard config is a cardioid capsule/mic mounted in front of or on top of a "figure 8" pattern capsule/mic with the lobes facing to the sides.  These channels are recorded separately too, as "Mid" and "Side".  For monitoring, and in post, these MS channels are run thru a matrix that basically puts the cardioid channel in the center of the stereo image, and adds two versions of the figure 8 pattern channels, one 180 degrees out of phase with the other.  This produces a stereo image with some degree of control over the width of the image.  (I should say that one has control over the width of the XY stereo image as well by using console pan pots.)

As to why you use one technique or the other (or others you haven't mentioned), well, that's an argument that sound people will have until the end of time.  Part of it is your personal preference for what the resulting stereo recording sounds like (ie you have to try them out) and part of it is what the post-audio dept. of your particular project wants to see/deal with.  Check in with them before you dump a lot of one type of recording or the other on them.

There are many many possible mic combos for each type--mostly it is down to how portable and rugged a set up you need and can afford.  Have a conversation with your audio dealer about the possibilities, esp. if you need to work outdoors and will have to work out the wind protection for the mics.

There is a lot of info on the web about MS, XY etc etc, do a little research and you'll get better answers than the above.

Philip Perkins

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M-S is also a coincident recording technique.

You can squeeze an M-S pair into a windscreen, and once it gets to me at the mixer I can send it to post as X-Y or M-S.

Protecting an X-Y pair from wind while preserving the coincident relationship between the mics is hard to do.

I favor a pair of Schoeps, one with an Mk4 or Mk41 capsule depending on the application, and the other with a figure of 8 capsule (in my case, an Mk6). The Mk6 is fussy and expensive, the most expensive piece of gear when priced per ounce I've ever bought, but is really versatile.

Best regards,

Jim

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part of it is what the post-audio dept. of your particular project wants to see/deal with.  Check in with them before you dump a lot of one type of recording or the other on them.

Agreed...I would go this one further and suggest that you DON'T do M/S recordings unless you have the express okay from post SOUND to do so.  A lot of sound designers don't know how to/don't want to/don't have time to deal wtih M/S and matrixing and all the rest of it and your efforts may be all for naught.  It is a mono compatible recording, so not all is lost, but in my experience XY seems to be the de facto stereo standard for sound designers and a safer bet if you're recording stereo effects and ambiences without having a conversation with anyone further down the chain.

.02 nvt

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I just finished a three month long documentary project, and I did extensive stereo recordings of ambiences, music and nature sounds. I spoke with post before the shoot, and they agreed with me to go with M-S recordings. The simple reason was, if they could use the stereo signal great we'll decode it and use it, but if not, at least we will have a great mono track on channel one of the recording.

I used a MKH-30 and MKH-50 combo, recorded on to a 744T, with great results. IMHO.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hari, here are the basics from a perspective of recording music performed on a stage — that's kind of where stereo was born:

http://www.tape.com/resource/stereo_microphone_techniques.html

In applying the various micing techniques to recording ambiances for a film, I am of two minds.  As a television post production mixer, I am usually attracted to the sound of near coincident and spaced pair ambiance recordings...they generally have a more dramatic stereo effect and also stay clear of muddying what's going on in the center of the stereo (or front) sound field where dialog generally lives.  But as a post production mixer you do have to stay one step ahead of the phase cancellation that results when this wonderful sound is folded down into mono...by checking it out in mono as you mix and at times narrowing the panning or doing some eq that will help it play acceptably in both stereo and mono. 

XY is a lot safer in the mono/stereo department, but it tends to sound a lot like the plane old mono dialog mix that's going on front and center...not a problem when the ambiance is being used to fill-in holes in the dialog, but it's generally just not all that interesting. With a little "creativity" you can make an out-of-phase XY mix and blend it with an in-phase version of the same thing and get something that pops out a little more when you want it to...but that is time-consuming and risky, again when it all goes to mono...and to an automated stereo phase error detector just ahead of the transmitter at a TV station or a network satellite up-link.  Film mixers have to be aware of that stuff too, as their work will more than likely go to the little screen at some point.

MS is a great way to go.  When matrixed correctly, it offers complete mono compatability...although it doesn't have the depth of image that near coincident or spaced pair can have.  But if something more dramatic is desired, it can be cheated by raising the side + and side - legs of  the matrix...but then there will be those pesky stereo phase errors to take into account.

So straight  up, as a post guy I prefer near coincident and spaced pair to anything else because they sound better to me.  But as a location sound guy I prefer the ease of wind protecting and carrying around an MS pair, and it can be made to sound almost as good.

What should you do?  As has been previously mentioned, talk to whomever will be mixing your project, to see if they have a preference.  There is no single best way to do it that will apply to all circumstances and tastes.

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