Tony Johnson Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 Are camera sliders the new dolly? A discussion point and what to do about it. For the last few years on both major movies and TV I have noticed the increased use of sliders for tracking shots. These are a menace to sound as they have steel bearings and are noisy. What often starts out as a camera correction or slow creep turns into a fast track in over dial rendering it ADR. Rather than try and stop their use, which I don't think is possible as they are a major time and money saver, would it be an idea ( with Jeffs say so and input) to approach the manufacturers as a JWSound collective rather than a lone voice from a Sound Mixer to build these to be quiet. One of the main makers is Ronford Baker who we all know as Tripod makers from way back. I doubt these guys know they are being used for a different purpose than intended but anyway maybe it's not such a major expense to have these built with a rubber wheel system or something to make them silent. There are now a few different manufacturers making these and they are all the same with steel bearings and they are making longer ones which gives even more scope as a tracking device. Anyway just an idea to see if we can collectively make a difference through a group sound forum. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 I have a memory of a camera assistant using baby powder to get rid of the squeaks on a dolly, but I can't recall if this was a slider or not. The better ones make almost zero noise, certainly not enough to matter for dialogue. The cheap ones... eh... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted April 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 The cheap ones... eh... I am not sure there are different types. All sliders I have used have the same steel bearing design and all make the same noise. They were designed to go on tripods so the operator could adjust the camera, especially for over shoulder shots, so they could compensate if an actor missed their mark so they were about 3foot long and used to adjust. Now there are much longer ones and are used to track the camera. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted April 6, 2015 Report Share Posted April 6, 2015 It depends a great deal on the speed of the camera movement on the slider. It's also not entirely the cost of the unit. I've worked with more expensive ones that were extremely loud, whereas I have a relatively inexpensive one that is blessedly quiet. A Dana Dolly (which is basically a cross between a traditional dolly and a slider) is generally well behaved noise-wise, but again, a lot depends upon the speed of the move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 It depends a great deal on the speed of the camera movement on the slider. Your right John it does. My problem is that they often use them with that in mind, meaning it's a very slow move but then things change and it becomes a fast track and it's too late to swap it out for a Dolly. They are not designed with sound in mind as a Dolly is. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 It depends on the device. In my grip and dolly days I set up many that were silent, or at least much quieter than the camera fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 In my world they have replaced dolly use about 50% of the time--often the DP gets a slider or he gets nothing to move the camera with. The only time I have trouble with pretty much any of them is when they do a fast reset during a shot, usually in a multicam situation, during dialog. The noise is loud enough that everyone can hear it, so usually that takes care of the issue. I don't think baby powder, Lemon Pledge etc etc will help this. The DanaDolly and the knockoffs of same are generally quieter. But the use of these things is only going to increase... philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 I see the Dana Dolly on set quite often and have had no sound problems with them. The small sliders can be problematic for sure. I've seen some grips prepping the slider with a lubricant spray (Teflon?) which helps, but not completely. I have asked operators to reset their moves slowly in the middle of a take instead of slamming it back, but that usually only lasts for one take or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olle Sjostrom Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 What about sliders on a dolly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmgoodin Posted April 7, 2015 Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 You might try Teflon Paste. I used to use stuff like this to reduce noise in the CD/DVD Drive head rails. http://www.ebay.com/itm/12371287-GM-Synthetic-Lubricant-Paste-With-Teflon-3-Oz-Container-/321230444319?hash=item4acad3971f&vxp=mtr Spray on stuff is probably to thin to stop noise. But the Teflon Gel is like Petrolium Jelly and lubricates but absorbs vibration of the bearings. It may not slide at full speed but will probably be quieter when it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted April 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2015 I can appreciate the methods used to make these quieter but I think the thrust needs to be for them to be redesigned especially as they become so prevalent. The scary thing for me is that after so many years of R&D went into making Dollies quiet and fully useable with sound these Sliders have just been made ignoring the needs of the Sound Dept. I also see them becoming more mainstream than Dollies as budgets and time are squeezed, also they seem to fit well with the small HD Cam world which are making inroads into Feature Film making. Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once more ... it depends on the device. I have set up many that are precision machined bases with precision bearings, nylon guides, spring bumpers, tension adjustments, etc. I have also seen some that are nothing more than skateboard wheels on a couple of pipes. The good ones are very expensive, and very quiet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Johnson Posted April 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Once more ... it depends on the device. I have set up many that are precision machined bases with precision bearings, nylon guides, spring bumpers, tension adjustments, etc. I have also seen some that are nothing more than skateboard wheels on a couple of pipes. The good ones are very expensive, and very quiet. My experience is based on the model shown in the photo above. Brian do you have a make and model of the silent ones?? Tony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Robinson Posted April 8, 2015 Report Share Posted April 8, 2015 Perhaps I've been lucky, but never had any problems with the Dana Dolly, Cam Tram, or Silent Cat. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnpaul215 Posted April 9, 2015 Report Share Posted April 9, 2015 I've worked with a few that don't have bearings, or wheels. They have some sort of plastic-like (Teflon?) pads that slide on the rails. I know some specifically said not to use wet or dry lube of any kind.... But out of desperation that ended up happening. I think some of them are designed ok on paper, but after getting bumped out of alignment they get goofy. I would hope the good ones take over and the crappy ones are seen as the equivalent of a basement rig of skateboard wheels on PVC pipes. They sort of work, but you make a lot of compromises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S Harber Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 Odd. The ones that we use on our dollies on my show and about in general on work are very quiet. I've never noticed them making any noise. Maybe with a DSLR or something that doesn't have the mass to weigh it down? S We have this version on a Fisher Dolly most of the time. It helps immensely lining up overs and various other shots. But it's not used as a dolly like some folks do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted April 10, 2015 Report Share Posted April 10, 2015 I've been on lots of shoots with the one in the pic above, I think the metal-on-metal ones CAN be noisier than the skate-wheel type when they are moved fast (like a reset), but they all work ok moved slowly, pretty much. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathaniel Robinson Posted April 12, 2015 Report Share Posted April 12, 2015 Ironically I encountered some pretty gnarly noise from a Dana Dolly this week when used as Philip is describing (fast reposition). Unfortunately it was a wide-and-tight shoot, with the wide camera crashing around whenever they lost a shot. Pretty incongruous with the interior office scene playing out. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reinout Weebers Posted April 17, 2015 Report Share Posted April 17, 2015 Guerilla style dolly's made with diy pipes and skate wheels are popping up here in the Netherlands.. I've tried baby powder and W40... but the materials are just to cheap. Maybe a blowtorch will help. Will try the teflon gel or spray, because I thing the barrings make the most noise. thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd Weaver Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 You can fix that noisy slider with a hacksaw for docs and reality. On bigger budget shows you would use a sawzall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Hall Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 My company makes the Dana Dolly, and before I started this, I was a Key Grip for a couple of decades. When I started making the DD, one of the first things I thought of was making the thing quiet. We did a lot of testing on bearings and wheels and we actually machine our wheels rough to try and avoid the squeak of smooth wheels, and we use bearings made to be smooth and quiet as opposed to skateboard bearings. I'd like to share a couple of things I've discovered that will make things squeak. Number 1 - Silicone Spray. This is like spraying a thin film of glass on a surface. It will work for a few hours, then watch out. As soon as both surfaces get well coated, it starts to sound like a finger rubbing on clean wet glass, and that's approximately what it is. 2 - WD-40. Works great for a limited time, but WD stands for "water displacement" and any bearing you spray with this will dry out eventually and squeak. 3 - Salt Water. If you use a slider or bearing dolly around Salt Water, you'll want to re-lube the bearings because they're going to dry out. I usually use Pledge spray wax, or baby powder, or well, nothing at all if there's not a squeak. If you happen to come across a noisy Dana Dolly, if you can share with the owner that we will completely replace the bearings and clean the wheels for $40 plus shipping, I'd appreciate it. All they have to do is call us. I've been working with a bearing company on a third generation bearing that I hope will stay quiet longer. Anyway, we're trying to help. If you have feedback, I'd appreciate that too. No use making pretty pictures without great sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe Dolinger Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 Nice Mike! Thanks for chiming in. I work with a DP who has used the same Dana Dolly for years and has never been a sound issue. He uses Pledge to keep the rails lubed, or soft, or whatever Pledge does. Thanks for caring about the whole set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted September 24, 2015 Report Share Posted September 24, 2015 In the end, let them do what they can to quiet any noisy slider or dolly track... All you can do is make the point of hearing it... and asking for any form of relief... As always, it's not your show, or your responsibility to make sure the gear others use is quiet for filming... Production will use what they use ...it's not always pretty... it is what it is.... Notate, and move on... unless of course they ask you to pay to fix it in post.... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Radlauer Posted September 25, 2015 Report Share Posted September 25, 2015 Mike is a great guy! Know him from my time here in Phx...He will definitely do you..or whomever right! On a film I worked on recently we used a Fisher dolly on track and had a hell of a time keeping it quiet... They tried everything in their power to eliminate the squeaks and pops etc...The only thing they couldn't do under any circumstance?? Remove the overweight DP from the dolly!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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