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In the last couple weeks there was a mixer thread somewhere Facebook wherein a work-for-us-free producer was trounced in the best tradition of web trouncing. Pitchforks were employed with impunity. Digital blood was shed. I was appalled and embarrassed for us.

 

My sense is that--beyond the natural scrum-i-ness of the internetz--"professional" mixers who search for and find work on Mandy's and Craig's List dig their own professional graves and oil the no-budget machine they profess to abhor.

 

Even so, this is exactly the right place for student mixers to get work.

 

Once you find these places raise your blood pressure this means only one thing: it's time to take the next step up the ladder. Huzzah! Congratulations!

 

There are always colleagues who need help staffing and they turn to me to staff sound. As a professional, it's my responsibility to keep the synergy flowing. 

 

This is a business of relationships and helping each other out.

 

If I'm moved to respond to a low-budget stupid staffing post, I first plug into the above-mentioned synergy intention. Otherwise, I try to keep my mouth shut.

 

Dealing with idiots well is a skill set I actively look for in my team, i.e. if a sound colleague can't deal with idiots gracefully in a field regularly scattered with idiots, I don't want 'em associated with me professionally.

 

More later.

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To be fair, I can feel their frustration. I all but gave up doing narrative work because it's such a mess. For example, maybe 5 or 6 years ago it seemed like a non-union indie with an approx $300k-$500k budget (heck, up to $1million) was paying mixers $500/12 for labor AND kit. Boom ops were getting $125-$175/12. There were people trying to pay less, but that was about as good as it got. 

in the last 3 years or so almost every call I got for mixing a "feature" was less, and many started doing this weird thing where they want to pay something in the ballpark of "all in for $3,000". When questioning them on details it was "probably 5 or 6 day weeks" and "we think it'll be 20-25 shooting days, but we will see how it goes". This isn't even having to argue that over 12 hours will be OT rates, this is flat project rates coming out to about $120/day. they also throw in the "well if you need a boom op, you'll have to pay them out of your rate". I sort of tried having those talks, but got nowhere. Somebody took the job for some terrible rate. I can't imagine they negotiated from $120/day up to even $500/day for a mixer and something to get a boom op to even show up. Maybe it's better in NY/GA/CA, but not around me. 

If that's current indie narrative work in my region, I'll keep doing reality for now and get paid a professional rate. 

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BTW I have no problem with no-budget documentaries or films. That's a different world than posting a crew call on a "looking for film crew" sites, and having unrealistic demands of the crew experience and equipment. Maybe there should be different "I need crew" type Facebook groups for productions that won't even pay minimum wage, and want your gear for free. 

 

I have friends that made a great documentary with basically no budget. As in they literally could not tell you what it cost because they did it while working minimum wage jobs, and added the traveling parts as side trips to when their bands were on the road. It was something a few friends worked on for a few years, and it was a fascinating subject. At the time I knew them because our bands played shows together. Had I known they were making the documentary, I would have donated time and/or equipment. It's a subject I had been interested in for a good while too. In the end, their no budget documentary project actually got into Sundance and won an award. To be honest, I don't know if a budget would have even made it a better project in the end. Maybe it would have sounded a little better. It surely would have been done faster and been less painful to the guy wearing the hats of director/editor/composer, but in the end it was a great subject and he knows how to tell a story that has you hooked. 

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+1 what Jan said!

Life can be much simpler than many of us choose to make it. What I'm saying is, "people have a right to ask, and people have a right to say no."

How you handle that "no" says more about you than it does the person you're saying it to. I've actually had low-ballers come back to me later with proper rates because I treated them professionally and they appreciated it and subsequently realized they needed a professional.

If their budget calls for an enterprising student, direct them to a local college where they might find one -- not with disdain, but with the same courtesy you like to receive.

There are occasional exceptions, of course, but they are rare, and that discussion is for an entirely different thread.

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+1 what Jan said!

Life can be much simpler than many of us choose to make it. What I'm saying is, "people have a right to ask, and people have a right to say no."

 

 

That's 100% true. When I get those calls I say "I can't work for that rate", and *possibly* sometimes add "... maybe a student is more what you're looking for". Usually that leads to a conversation I don't have any interest in having. If i don't get off the phone fast, it ALWAYS turns into "well can you give me the names and contact info of a few mixers with credits and our required gear that will work for this rate?" It's just easier to get off the phone faster and go back to your life. It's like trying to talk to the religious people that go door to door. The more you say, the harder it is to get rid of them. I've had 2 of those just this week. 

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...

If i don't get off the phone fast, it ALWAYS turns into "well can you give me the names and contact info of a few mixers with credits and our required gear that will work for this rate?"

...

That's interesting. I seldom have such an issue. I often give referrals, but direct them to someone appropriate. If it's low ball, I'll mention a college or two.

Sometimes just sympathizing with their budgetary plight is totally disarming and can lead to their further understanding of why they need a pro. I find it's amazing how much better almost any interaction goes if I lead by seeing things from the other person's perspective.

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It always pays to be polite, at first anyhow, and in convo with people you can't see in person (like on the web).  Yesterday I got some texts for jobs on which the rate was considerably below what I currently think of as my minimum.  I appreciate that these producers were straight with me about their budget, and I sent them a list I keep of people who might be interested.  I hope to hear from these producers again, when they have moved up to bigger jobs.

 

philp

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I'm not rude to them, but I also wouldn't know where to find somebody with 8 wireless mics, and a TC multitrack recorder that will work for a flat $150/day. A college kid around here won't have access to that kind of gear. That's not just reality TV, I've had that request for indie films/shorts/whatever. I don't think they want to hear my reasons for why 8 wireless mics is probably not needed, because the director has demanded it. That's a lot of conversation to get into explaining how off the mark they are. Instead of trying to "politely educate" them, and probably offending them, my usual response is a brief "I can't do that, and I don't know anyone with that much gear that would work for those numbers".

I'm not condoning being a jerk by any means, but I also understand the now frighteningly common "we have filled every crew position except sound..... So this is all the money that's left for that department" thing.

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There's a phenomena in crewing up jobs that I call "last one in line".  Above there was posited the proverbial $150/day all-in-with-a-big-package situation.  As more people turn this down, I've found that gradually the offered rate often starts to go up, as the producer realizes how far from reality their offer is, and that (so far) they haven't gotten lucky in finding an ambitious newbie or someone in a desperate situation.  I've turned many gigs down as being too low budg, only to hear that, days or weeks later and many mixers down the line, whoever did the job got something much closer to a real rate, or better.  They were just lucky enough to be "last in line".  Good for that mixer, good for the sound community, and hopefully a lesson learned by some filmmakers.

 

philp

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To be fair, I can feel their frustration. I all but gave up doing narrative work because it's such a mess. For example, maybe 5 or 6 years ago it seemed like a non-union indie with an approx $300k-$500k budget (heck, up to $1million) was paying mixers $500/12 for labor AND kit. Boom ops were getting $125-$175/12. There were people trying to pay less, but that was about as good as it got. 

in the last 3 years or so almost every call I got for mixing a "feature" was less, and many started doing this weird thing where they want to pay something in the ballpark of "all in for $3,000". When questioning them on details it was "probably 5 or 6 day weeks" and "we think it'll be 20-25 shooting days, but we will see how it goes". This isn't even having to argue that over 12 hours will be OT rates, this is flat project rates coming out to about $120/day. they also throw in the "well if you need a boom op, you'll have to pay them out of your rate". I sort of tried having those talks, but got nowhere. Somebody took the job for some terrible rate. I can't imagine they negotiated from $120/day up to even $500/day for a mixer and something to get a boom op to even show up. Maybe it's better in NY/GA/CA, but not around me. 

If that's current indie narrative work in my region, I'll keep doing reality for now and get paid a professional rate. 

 

Everytime and after reading this post; it is anywhere.

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There are two points I would like to make here. Not all projects have the same budgets. We have to acknowledge that. In my market, budgets are all over the place. You might be offered a "student" rate and a "pro" rate within the same week.

The second point is that I cannot criticize a mixer

for taking a lower rate and accuse them of "ruining the market". That mixer is going to work at an honest job to feed their kids and pay their bills. No shame there.

As freelancers, we often gamble with our personal circumstances. We may turn down lower rates from wannabee filmmakers knowing that the phone will ring soon with our true day rate on the other end. But if my phone hasn't been ringing, I can't feed my kid steadfast principals.

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I'm afraid that I'm going to have to (slightly) dis-agree with you Jan.   Absolutely, I feel bad for the person who is publicly trounced, taken out to the square, flogged, stripped naked, and tarred and feathered over the Internet for what seems to be nothing more than an old fashioned public hanging, for sure!!   However, there is a much larger picture here.  Shaming.  Shamming has been used effectively for many many years, and long since mankind realized they have to live together, if they want to survive in this world.

 

Is it right to pick on one individual?  Absolutely not!  But public shamming is still a very effective tool.  Let me give an example. 

 

You’re driving down the highway, on the road to Vegas thinking about your future jackpots.  All of you on the road, are probably driving a bit too fast, and something in the human psyche, perhaps it's our competitive nature, pushes us in this imaginary life pole position game.  We've all done this.  Now.. suddenly, a Cop, seaming comes out of nowhere.. lights come on..  And the guy 2 cars in front of you, gets pulled over..  We've all been in this situation, and we're all thinking the same things..  Humiliation and a very public shaming way, "That guy is getting a ticket!".  But wait... We were all speeding??  But, hell.. He can't pull over EVERYONE.  But for one brief second you say to yourself.. "Wow. Thank gawd that’s not me!"  .. and we proceed onward with our lives, much slower I might add..  At least for the next 100 miles, or so.

 

Now let me add here.. A totally agree.  for that one guy that gets the big "A" branded on him.. it sucks.   but you have to admit.  Shaming is effective. What if public shaming stopped?  We can't make rules and laws for every little tiny thing that people do wrong.. We would be covered in signs, and enormous amount of laws.  (Hell, LA parking signs are hard enough).  Shaming is what keeps the public 'in line'.  People are imune from Shaming, get more and more out of line.  The behavor looks normal to them, and outragous to us, and it keeps getting worse, had not someone step in and say something.

 

The point is, perhaps you think that you not effected by these low ball producers..  But what happens when everyone is offering 100/days without being told they are wrong!   Every studio head keeps seeing these rates, and starts to think, "crap, Im overpaying people".  What happens when everyone is offering 100/days!!  After seeing those rates, over and over, day after day.. would anybody start thinking this must be normal?  I'm mean.. nobody is saying anything to the contrary, right??  No one is getting beat up over these rates, because people are not saying anything.. so this must be ok?

 

But, in general..  yes, I try (sometimes fail) to keep my mouth closed.  Move on..  glad that guy is being shamed, and not me.  And the Battle is lost, but the War is won… For now.

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Without suggesting that I agree or disagree in particular with any individual's actions (aside from generally being polite and professional), can I point out some underlying economic mechanisms here?

We have the attribute of working in a career that Nassim Nicholas Taleb would describe as being, "Antifragile" (don't read it, it's incredibly boring). That is to say that while our momentary career security is constantly fluctuating, over time we find that we are well adapted to this fluctuation and that any given set back is not as catastrophic as say being fired from a salaried position. Part of that adaptation is that we prepare for those setbacks and that is reflected in our rates.
 

Another consequence of the fluctuating nature of our career is that it causes the economic evaluations to be updated much more frequently. The frequent conversations that we have about rates and offers are indications of the quality of our market. Market inefficiency arises mainly due to information asymmetry. As such it is highly important that we, as a product in demand, constantly keep up the conversation of our own evaluation, as the more information we have about evaluation, the more efficient our market.

At the same time, I would never fault someone for trying to bargain the lowest price possible, and like it or not advances in our industry could very well lead to the decline of value in our market. Some advances help us do our job. Others make us less necessary. Others provide us with new opportunities (reality television, for instance). I would never suggest that we stop progress in the name of artificially inflating our prices. But thankfully we are adept at adapting and I feel grateful to have had the training and experience that has made me antifragile.

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...

(RR's shaming diatribe)

Shaming? I disagree. I prefer to handle job offers professionally.

They make an offer and I have the choice to accept, decline, or negotiate.

Those who try to defend their rates, therefore are on the defensive, and call into question both their value and their professionalism.

If I believe I'm worth what I charge, others will too -- whether or not they can afford me. If I were to anxiously try to defend my rates, the person I'm talking to would think they require defending.

To put this into perspective, have you ever had a physician attempt to vehemently defend their rates to you? Most wise people would change doctors if they encountered a medical care professional that insecure and defensive.

If a producer or coordinator wants what I have to offer and can afford it, then they hire me. If spending less money is more important to them than quality, they'll make that choice. And, guess what -- it's their right, their job, and their choice to make -- even if it's a misguided decision.

I prefer to let them know by my actions that I'm a professional, and let them deal with it as they will. Part of those actions includes treating them as a professional, too.

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I

 

You’re driving down the highway, on the road to Vegas thinking about your future jackpots.  All of you on the road, are probably driving a bit too fast, and something in the human psyche, perhaps it's our competitive nature, pushes us in this imaginary life pole position game.  We've all done this.  Now.. suddenly, a Cop, seaming comes out of nowhere.. lights come on..  And the guy 2 cars in front of you, gets pulled over..  We've all been in this situation, and we're all thinking the same things..  Humiliation and a very public shaming way, "That guy is getting a ticket!".  But wait... We were all speeding??  But, hell.. He can't pull over EVERYONE.  But for one brief second you say to yourself.. "Wow. Thank gawd that’s not me!"  .. and we proceed onward with our lives, much slower I might add..  At least for the next 100 miles, or so.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Richard, 

 

I disagree with this example. I generally speed up because I know the officer has someone pulled over. Then I get behind someone else going fast, betting that they are going to get pulled over before I do. I have no shame!

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Richard, 

 

I disagree with this example. I generally speed up because I know the officer has someone pulled over. Then I get behind someone else going fast, betting that they are going to get pulled over before I do. I have no shame!

 

This might be a tactical error on your part Whit.   The California Highway Patrol has something called 'spotters'.  They have one petrol car, or a plane watching the road, downward hill, or highway..  They don't do the actually pull over.  Instead, it's relayed to as many or up to 5 patrol cars, waiting ahead.  By the time you see them, they've already got your speed.. now they are just doing the motions of pulling you over.  So the speed up thing because someone else is busy, doesn't really apply!  :)

 

-Richard

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It might be important to distinguish RR's point as a practical matter, not a moral one. Likely he would not disagree with the ideal nature of everyone in the world being polite and professional and awesome.

 

But RR's point doesn't even require a particularly vindictive attitude at all. His example is indicative of the fact that the publically demonstrated speed trap is effective even without the police officer being considered unprofessional in any way. Of course this assumes a denotation of authority, however, the act of peer pressure can have the same effect even without being disrespectful. One might suggest there is a stronger motivation instilled by harsher peer pressure, but it can also result in the destruction of relationships which is of course where we derive the majority of our power.

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