Career Frustration

[Richard Ragon]

Hey.. you know.. I was thinking of another example.  Isn't the Media's (aka local news) entire premise revolve around 'Shaming'.  Here's how the American news media works in this country. 

 

1)  Story breaks about a local businessmen that rips off a customer or several customers.

 

2)  American news media, gets involved, broadcast the story about how a customer is getting nowhere in their complaints and/or refunds.  Blast news coverage of both sides, with questions and answers, and perhaps interviews.  The general public act like judges, and we figured out whats going on here..

 

3)  Customer and local business.. now under the microscope, aka Shaming!

 

4)  Business now embarrassed about all the pressure it's getting (not to mention bad press), gives the customers back their refunds.

 

See??  Public shaming works!  It's done every day on the news.. no need to involve legal battles, reshaping of laws, or long drawn out court proceedings.

 

p.s.  Keep in mind, I'm not shaming anyone, I'm just playing devils advocate here for alternative take on things.

 

-Richard

[John Blankenship]

I have to admit I don't agree with the "Shaming Philosophy" and don't really understand how speed traps and television troubleshooters even apply to this discussion.

Perhaps I function in a different world than Richard. I appreciate just about anyone who calls me for a gig and prefer to treat them with the same respect I like to receive. If the rate's too low, I can just say "no."

[NewEndian]

What we're calling "shaming" really is just a form of peer pressure. And peer pressure of course occurs constantly in all aspects of our life, particularly in these forums. But different types of peer pressure can have different positive and negative effects on different people. 

 

As a practical matter, you really could be shooting yourself in the foot by displaying publically your willingness to be vindictive and unwillingness to negotiate on good faith if you take the harsher "shaming" approach. And the person could turn around and see all people in our particular craft as adversaries, hampering future negotiations as people tend to negotiate more favorably when they're happier and more familial.

Then again, if you follow Daniel Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow" (which I recommend that every human being read), you would be encouraged to very blatantly reject negotiation based on such low ball offers as anything but an outright rejection would result in your anchoring to that first offer.

Mind you, I personally wouldn't take my own advice on negotiation as I am terrible at it. I'm just trying to put names to the patterns we see in the ideas we are discussing and better define how they fit in the larger context.
 

Classically speaking, though, news isn't motivated by political agenda. It is motivated by novelty and sensationalism (ie, that which garners the most attention). It is why you hear about the suicidal plane crash but not the numerous suicidal car crashes that are more prevalent and should actually garner more of our attention.

[Richard Ragon]

Again John, I'm not advocating one thing, or the other.. I'm simply pointing out to perhaps explain why people do 'shaming'.

 

Shaming has been around since the dawn of man!  It's only just recently that our culture has put a name on it, and see it as 'bad'.  Perhaps it's the hippy thing..

 

So, if this is the way our society is going.. then, hell.. Show up at Walmart with nothing on but your Tighty Whities, 6inch Heels, and Mullet hair..  And when someone points out that this is 'inappropriate', tell them to f--- off, you Shamer!

 

-Richard

[John Blankenship]

...

So, if this is the way our society is going.. then, hell.. Show up at Walmart with nothing on but your Tighty Whities, 6inch Heels, and Mullet hair.. And when someone points out that this is 'inappropriate', tell them to f--- off, you Shamer!

I'm at a loss as to how this relates in any way to handling rate discussions in a professional manner.

Maybe someone has watched a few too many Bruce Jenner interviews.

Besides, I prefer Target to Walmart, they have a much better dress code.

[Richard Ragon]

John have you looking into Japanese culture? They take shaming to whole new levels.. Well, at least the previous generations did anyway.

Richard

[John Blankenship]

John have you looking into Japanese culture? They take shaming to whole new levels.. Well, at least the previous generations did anyway.

Again...

he said patiently...

for me this doesn't apply to the discussion of fielding calls that offer low rates.

You seem to encounter a great deal more hiring conflict than I do -- perhaps trying to shame people who are trying to hire you is not an ideal approach.

[NewEndian]

I agree with John here. We might be taking this concept a little too far outside the relevant area.

I think what RR is trying to say is that the term "shaming" has been coined in a derogatory sense and that anti-shaming is new to society. But that too is just another form of peer pressure which has also been around forever (I'm pretty sure Jesus had a version of anti-shaming as well)

[Whit Norris]

This might be a tactical error on your part Whit.   The California Highway Patrol has something called 'spotters'.  They have one petrol car, or a plane watching the road, downward hill, or highway..  They don't do the actually pull over.  Instead, it's relayed to as many or up to 5 patrol cars, waiting ahead.  By the time you see them, they've already got your speed.. now they are just doing the motions of pulling you over.  So the speed up thing because someone else is busy, doesn't really apply! 

 

-Richard

Not a tactical error at all... I do most of my driving in the southeast so I'm not concerned about your California Highway Patrol (revenue collectors) tactics. My trusty Escort Passport Radar/Laser detector rides on the dash. 

 

Whit

[Richard Ragon]

Thanks for the Explanation NewEndian.  John seams to be wanting to 'kill the messenger'.  I'm not shaming anyone, John, in fact.. I'm not even sure of the original thread of which Jan was referring too.. Simply just giving my devils viewpoint.. that's all.

 

-Richard

[cory]

Internet witch hunts are definitely lame, destructive, and silly. Civility, politeness, and respect are the way to go for sure. Thanks Jan, for having some of the best and most useful posts. I love reading them and often learn something useful.

"My sense is that--beyond the natural scrum-i-ness of the internetz--"professional" mixers who search for and find work on Mandy's and Craig's List dig their own professional graves and oil the no-budget machine they profess to abhor."

I have to ask-- Jan and others who poo-poo internet job listings-- where do you think non-Union folks SHOULD look for work other than word of mouth if not online? One of the most frustrating things to me is hearing people who have had long and illustrious careers advise folks like me to simply "work on projects with higher budgets." Easier said than done. On a side note, there has been a long applicant freeze in local 52 that I believe is still in effect-- so even if one really wanted to join the union at the moment they would find it impossible.

But I digress-- I really would be interested to know about places to seek work other than Mandy and Craigslist that people find effective... Anybody?

[John Blankenship]

...

John seams to be wanting to 'kill the messenger'.  I'm not shaming anyone, John, in fact.. I'm not even sure of the original thread of which Jan was referring too.. Simply just giving my devils viewpoint.. that's all.

Sorry if I misunderstood you, Richard. I guess that shaming a potential client is so far from my concept of professional interaction that I really didn't grasp where you were coming from, or how it even applied to the discussion. I didn't mean to make it personal -- my apologies if you feel I wandered in that direction.

[Abe Dolinger]

I agree Cory. It's a reality of our business that we deal with a range of budgets. I take pride in having moved to NY and having learned the rudiments of the craft via low-budget gigs I found online. It was like getting a stipend to go to school.

I also take pride in not having to do that anymore, and living more comfortably. The distance between the two is foggy in retrospect. I do my best on set, of course, but I can easily see getting stuck in low-budget world if you love narrative film, for example. (I'm lucky I don't.)

One of the biggest breaks I got was on a pitifully low-budget doc I found on Craigslist. I looked up the cameraman beforehand and saw he worked in TV. So I rented some extra gear and worked my ass off those days. He brought me on some TV gigs and drastically increased my experience and credibility. So I guess that's one way to do it ...

(The political part of me has to add that it helps a great deal to be male, white, and heteronormative. But most of us have that covered!)

[Jan McL]

Internet witch hunts are definitely lame, destructive, and silly. Civility, politeness, and respect are the way to go for sure. Thanks Jan, for having some of the best and most useful posts. I love reading them and often learn something useful.

"My sense is that--beyond the natural scrum-i-ness of the internetz--"professional" mixers who search for and find work on Mandy's and Craig's List dig their own professional graves and oil the no-budget machine they profess to abhor."

I have to ask-- Jan and others who poo-poo internet job listings-- where do you think non-Union folks SHOULD look for work other than word of mouth if not online? One of the most frustrating things to me is hearing people who have had long and illustrious careers advise folks like me to simply "work on projects with higher budgets." Easier said than done. On a side note, there has been a long applicant freeze in local 52 that I believe is still in effect-- so even if one really wanted to join the union at the moment they would find it impossible.

But I digress-- I really would be interested to know about places to seek work other than Mandy and Craigslist that people find effective... Anybody?

 

Thanks for your post, Cory.

 

I'm not poo-pooing internet job listings in the least, but rather ask a question of those who've clearly moved beyond what these listings offer and yet return again and again only to beat the low budget-ness offered there with baseball bats. It's easy to do that. Too easy probably. What's harder is to find the way to build the musculature to take the next step up. 

 

It's my theory that the moment you find yourself wanting to take a text-based bat to a low-budget producer, it's time to reflect upon where you are, where you want to be, and how you're going to get there.

 

That moment [see the subject of this thread] is one of many "Career Frustrations".

 

How you deal with frustration is either a valuable asset or fail.

 

Our days are built of frustrations.

 

The reality TV / low budget / student film career path has yielded a crop of new mixers mixing before their bellybutton scab's even fallen off. You are lucky. Congratulations. Hands on experience is wonderful. The best. Good ways "in" without having to own gear. But it would serve you to understand--from the perspective of someone who is where you aspire to be--you're working in and learning from a particular entertainment culture that is similar to but significantly different from the culture you wish to live in. 

 

There are many Catch 22 moments in this biz and this is the first big 'un: can't get in without experience, can't get [good] experience without gettin' in.

 

One scenario is you work in both newbie and veteran arenas. Interning cost me four months in opportunity costs. In retrospect understand that finishing a college degree would have cost more and yielded less. But I learn best as an apprentice.

 

It's a Koan. Figure it out.

 

If you can't figure it out without turning into the kind of mobbish people that put Scarlet Letters on potential clients, maybe this isn't the career for you. Mobs arise from fear. What are you afraid of? I was terrified at first. Every moment of every day.

[NewEndian]

If I'm hearing correctly, pretty much everyone here feels that vindictive responses to low ball offers are morally indefensible, and most people find them impractical as well.

 

It's not that they can't achieve their desired immediate effect, but that doing so undermines the larger discourse that really everyone wants everyone else to treat each other with respect.

 

However, I'd like to refer back to Kahneman's "Thinking Fast and Slow", which suggests not only that we do blatantly reject negotiations based on low ball offers, but also that we make the offerer aware that he is operating in bad faith and that we will warn others who might negotiate with him. Perhaps we could find language and a protocol that would be deemed polite and professional, and also achieves those effects.

 

Any suggestions?

[Joshua Anderson]

I'm not even sure I understand what this thread is about anymore. From Jan's initial post, through Richard's public shaming for advocating public shaming, I have learned that my kindle (that I never have time to read anyways) looks like a kindergarten library compared to James'.

If I understand Jan's first post, I think she's saying that a sound mixer who might be frustrated with low ball job offers doesn't need to spend the energy on educating every person who calls. Instead, they can take the frustration as a sign that that they are ready to step into bigger if jobs. How does one find that market and get into it has never been a clear route or one that translates to everyone. But I thought Jan was just trying to point out a positive spin on what can sometimes feel like a frustrating moment. But maybe I'm missing the root of the discussion through all of the flowers.

Josh

[John Blankenship]

....

Any suggestions?

Yes.

Read, then reread, then read again, Jan's most recent post above. Keep rereading it until you've crossed the great divide.

[NewEndian]

John, that's not a very good answer to my question.

Jan's and my posts are not mutually exclusive. I agree we all have to decide for ourselves what rate we're at professionally. I'm talking about the instances that you are presented with an initial offer well below your rate. Naturally you should not entertain negotiations based on a low ball offer. But I don't agree that you shouldn't educate the offerer on what rate you consider acceptable. And I do think that we should keep an honest and open discourse among ourselves. I believe that doing these things is valuable to us and the market as a whole.

And I believe that it is possible to be respectful and professional while doing so. My question is, what specifically do you say?

[NewEndian]

(I read in a book once that part of Starbucks training involves roleplaying exercises with the express purpose of teaching barristers to have more control over their emotions when dealing with customers )

[Glen Deakin]

Mmmm. Starbucks. I don't think I have ever cone across an unhappy Batista.

[John Blankenship]

John, that's not a very good answer to my question.

Jan's and my posts are not mutually exclusive. I agree we all have to decide for ourselves what rate we're at professionally. I'm talking about the instances that you are presented with an initial offer well below your rate. Naturally you should not entertain negotiations based on a low ball offer. But I don't agree that you shouldn't educate the offerer on what rate you consider acceptable. And I do think that we should keep an honest and open discourse among ourselves. I believe that doing these things is valuable to us and the market as a whole.

And I believe that it is possible to be respectful and professional while doing so. My question is, what specifically do you say?

I wasn't trying to be flip. From my vantage point, I actually consider that to be an excellent answer to the question. I can understand why someone could see it otherwise, though.

To reply to, "My question is, what specifically do you say?" -- the answer to that is situational -- so it depends. Frequently it takes the form of me simply quoting my rate. I think that operating under the assumption of "educating them" is foolhardy -- the reason being, they know much more about their situation than I do. If they offer low ball rates and people accept them, they are being educated. If a sound mixer of the caliber they'd like to hire quotes a proper rate and passes on their offer, they will learn from that, too.

So, me presuming to teach them something they don't know requires my assumption that I know what they know, what their situation is, who they're working for, what that relationship is, etc., etc. And, of course, we're all aware of what happens when one assumes!

So, I prefer to talk to a prospective client in a professional manner with the same respect I like to receive. I've found this has served me rather well, including clients who initially came to me with a low offer, who at a future time, came back with a proper budget. Did I educate them? No. They educated themselves. I only offered some of the information they needed to do so.

If I had approached them with a chip on my shoulder, they likely would have left our conversation with the impression, "this may be what he charges, but I don't want to work with a snotty jerk," and quite frankly, I can't blame them. Hopefully -- and I've witnessed this being the case -- they leave with the feeling, "He's out of my budget right now, but if that's what dealing with a professional is like, I hope I can afford to work with him some day."

No, I don't bat a thousand, but what I outlined is my goal and sometimes I score well.

[Richard Ragon]

Sorry if I misunderstood you, Richard. I guess that shaming a potential client is so far from my concept of professional interaction that I really didn't grasp where you were coming from, or how it even applied to the discussion. I didn't mean to make it personal -- my apologies if you feel I wandered in that direction.

 

Much respect John.. much respect.

[Jan McL]

Started this thread because I'm in the midst of a personal growth program of learning to negotiate better. Hyper awareness ensues.

 

As part of that I approach every job inquiry as a chance to practice.

 

Blankenship's correct re: situationality. Think this real world communique will answer earlier question. This recent practice session went thus:

 

Hi Jan,

 

My name is _____.  I'm the EP on an upcoming low budget feature film shooting in LA during the month of _____ called "_____".

 

I absolutely appreciate that we cannot afford you but since I respect your work, I am reaching out to see if you have a protégé you would recommend, who is ambitious and has some experience as a mixer.  We'd love to have someone who you think is talented, if maybe unproven.

 

The film will be directed by _____ (_____.com).

 

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

 

Kind regards,

 

_____

 

 

Oh, also, if it helps, we think this is actually a very exciting project.  "_____" is being produced by _____ (he lists 3 A-list films).  Currently attached as a co-lead is _____.  Several other deals are being finalized as we speak.

 

_____

 

Hiya, _____,

 

If you wish me to play sound Yenta successfully, you're gonna have to give me more info...

 

 

Jan

 

_____

 

Sound Yenta!  I love that.

 

Here's everything about the show:

 

We are shooting from _____ to _____, [four] five day weeks.

 

It is a non-IATSE production.  It will be SAG, modified low budget.

 

Our rate for keys is, unfortunately, only $200/day plus we have $150/day in gear rentals plus $150/day for the boom op.

 

I have attached a brief synopsis of the script and am happy to share the full thing if necessary.  We're very proud of it.

 

The story is very contained and will involve mainly [3 actors].  The bulk of the shoot (17ish days out of 20) will be in residential houses.  Eighteen of the days will be in _____, and the last two will be in _____.  We are shooting on the RED Dragon.  We will most likely need two lavs and a small handful of comteks.

 

Is there any other information that you'd like to know?

 

I'm very grateful for any help you can provide!

 

_____

 

A compelling premise! 

 

Good thinking to keep such a project contained.

 

How many locations total?

 

Based on my knowledge of US markets, the rates you quote put you squarely in the just-out-of-school school. If you want to capture usable sound, I'm thinking you would do well to consider raising the boom op rate since a newly-minted mixer is unlikely to be able to place lavalieres well.

 

Let me have the weekend to inquire of my other-coast pals.

 

Jan

 

_____

 

Hi Jan,

 

Really appreciate you taking the time!

 

We have two main locations, both of which are private homes.  We will shoot there for 17 of the 20 days.  Two days are devoted to a courthouse scene for the trial, then the remaining day is a quick scene at a hardware store and another one in a basement.  Five locations total.

 

At the rates we are paying, it's somewhat difficult to determine who is really good and who isn't - since most applicants have hardly any credentials to their name - so we are really grateful for any recommendations from trusted sources such as yourself.  Sound is too important to roll the dice on!

 

Look forward to hearing from you.

 

Thanks again,

 

_____

 

 

Jeepers creepers, _____, with such an estimable collection of humanity, you should be able to raise the going rate for excellent sound. ADR's expensive and what you buy with that rate is likely going to cost the same or more in post as a first-rate sound team now. Moreover the performances will be captured. 

 

The performances matter.

 

Or maybe they don't.

 

Anyway, worth running the numbers by a post super, no?

 

 

In any event, I plan to forward our discussion to the colleague best able to help you find the student of your dreams soon after I hit 'Enter' here.

 

XOXO,

Jan

 

Was simply honest with him. Professional? Dunno. In the back of my head as I'm typing, I'm plugging into how I would communicate with a beloved producer/UPM colleague.

 

In any event, a worthy practice session and for that I'm grateful to have received the inquiry.

[Jan McL]

To be fair, I can feel their frustration. I all but gave up doing narrative work because it's such a mess. For example, maybe 5 or 6 years ago it seemed like a non-union indie with an approx $300k-$500k budget (heck, up to $1million) was paying mixers $500/12 for labor AND kit. Boom ops were getting $125-$175/12. There were people trying to pay less, but that was about as good as it got. 

in the last 3 years or so almost every call I got for mixing a "feature" was less, and many started doing this weird thing where they want to pay something in the ballpark of "all in for $3,000". When questioning them on details it was "probably 5 or 6 day weeks" and "we think it'll be 20-25 shooting days, but we will see how it goes". This isn't even having to argue that over 12 hours will be OT rates, this is flat project rates coming out to about $120/day. they also throw in the "well if you need a boom op, you'll have to pay them out of your rate". I sort of tried having those talks, but got nowhere. Somebody took the job for some terrible rate. I can't imagine they negotiated from $120/day up to even $500/day for a mixer and something to get a boom op to even show up. Maybe it's better in NY/GA/CA, but not around me. 

If that's current indie narrative work in my region, I'll keep doing reality for now and get paid a professional rate. 

 

Re-reading the thread in its entirety.

 

I worked a few movies as you describe when I first started.

 

As a result, learned getting a full-body "gag" response is a good indicator to be wary.

 

This was the birth of my remarkable collection of red flags.

 

The last one I did was so disorganized and chaotic, replaced myself half way through with the boom op who aspired to mix; kept the kit rental knowing that would be the last time I'd work on such a project.

 

In that youthful transition I was not graceful. Burned a few bridges with the same righteous indignation I've witnessed and write about here.

 

A good education will always cost you.

 

Always.

 

YouTube and JWSoundGroup.net notwithstanding.

 

P.S. Congratulations johnpaul for having found a way out of the morass that works for you.

[Jan McL]

There's a phenomena in crewing up jobs that I call "last one in line".  Above there was posited the proverbial $150/day all-in-with-a-big-package situation.  As more people turn this down, I've found that gradually the offered rate often starts to go up, as the producer realizes how far from reality their offer is, and that (so far) they haven't gotten lucky in finding an ambitious newbie or someone in a desperate situation.  I've turned many gigs down as being too low budg, only to hear that, days or weeks later and many mixers down the line, whoever did the job got something much closer to a real rate, or better.  They were just lucky enough to be "last in line".  Good for that mixer, good for the sound community, and hopefully a lesson learned by some filmmakers.

 

philp

 

Yes. Yes. Yes.