Constantin Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I see Constantin & I were making the same point at the same time. I agree w him.;~) CrewC And I agree with you! [emoji3] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 I agree too! But being logical doesn't always "win" in this biz, and I could see post starting to ask for the metadata just because they can, so I want to find a workable solution. Wait--I don't agree about docs--in that case, where there is no time to write anything down (or enter much of anything) until the end of the day or lunch maybe some sort of auto metadata distro would be a good idea…. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Sonnenfeld Posted May 18, 2015 Report Share Posted May 18, 2015 How automatic are you talking about? Honestly I think that is what time of day TC is for. On small projects and docs you can organize what happened by time of day. Any more than that and I think it quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns because there may not be enough people in post to even bother with much more than creating an Avid Auto Sequence and calling it a day as far as grouping is concerned. I've done a lot of non scripted and docu work and honestly all that post wants is to be able to see a timeline of the day that matches or almost matches a field producers notes. In this regard and in these smaller settings, I think the best and most universal piece of equipment is an accurate wrist watch on the producer's arm. In the case of features or longer term, larger scale work, I think that Ambient makes and is making the most comprehensive set of integration and metadata tools available. Their system is also scalable from TC only shoots to full end to end on set metadata pipelines going from camera, to sound, to script supervisors, to DIT and to post. Their hardware, software, and acquisition of Easy Scott clearly shows where they are going in the future and if I had to pick one system, I would pick ACN. And as an owner of three blue Lockits, I already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I don't agree about docos at all. TC is not ever enough by itself, it repeats ever day!. Who is talking? Where are you now? Who is now on what track? What is happening in the shot(s)? What audio file did these things happen in? All this and more I end up entering off of a small spiral notebook or pieces of white tape stuck to the recorder, sometimes into the recorder via a keybd when I have time to hook one up, or later from my notes into wave agent. Having some info automatically shared between camera and sound (in addition to TC and date) would be a great thing for post on a long-form doc project. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevegrider Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 In many doc situations that were pre-metadata, I just used the slate mic feature on my DAT and spoke volumes of helpful info onto the tape. I still to this day use the slate mic to relay info to edit even though I label scene, take, notes and track name metadata. I can never really be sure if edit will hear any or all of it, but it is a simple way to relay information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Yes, me too, in 1/4" to an even greater degree, it was called "talking to the Nagra" by several doco shooters I worked with. But those were slower times, with people listening through all the transfers at sound speed and logging them. Nowadays assistant editors kind of expect everything to be handed to them digitally: predigested and layed out in a emailable report that is attached to the files so they can immediately zero in on what they want. And I like the idea of decriptive data being part of the file itself as it moves through post. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I would love for somebody (Script Sup?) to enter scene & take and have it magically populate the fields on my slate(s) and audio file meta data. I can't tell you how many times I see&shear the slate and it's not what I expected. That to me would be the ideal solution, since on reasonable-sized sets and union sets, the script sup reigns over all scene/take-naming activity. On frenetic sets, I've often tried to park the cart as close to scripty as possible just so I know what the hell they're shooting and the sound files will be named correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Phillip Nowadays assistant editors kind of expect everything to be handed to them digitally: predigested and layed out in a emailable report that is attached to the files so they can immediately zero in on what they want. Ahh, yes... expectations.... And I would like a few things too.... such as... A) Better hand delivered treats and food items from crafty... without them going to the "higher ups first... Like PAs... B.. A quiet set C) Some basic understanding from others on set about what we do and why. D) Folks in edit actually calling ME FIRST about any little issue they may have rather than sending out a bulk email to all above the line folks.. I mean, my number and email are all over the place and yes, right there on the report!! E) Assistant editors actually knowing what they are doing, difficult at $15 an hour.. LOL F) Comfortable and air conditioned areas for me to do my job.... G) ADs getting me out of there before waiting 6 hours till THEY, the Director and others figure out I'm done... On and On and On... Point is, we all have expectations...some realistic, some not so... Mixers in the field deal with a tremendous amount of "crap" to arrive at their turned in data... The folks in edit must deal with it the best they can... I am all for making things better, more streamlined...but it must come from a system where we are relieved of the burden not presented with more... As has been said, If the system can be ran by Scripty, and dealt with by them... OK...maybe... but, in reality it will be US and VTR that help mitigate all the technical problems they will find in the chosen system... and the system WILL have issues... trust me...Burden back on us... Again, all to make someone's life a BIT easier in post... Maybe the Post folks should walk around in some Jungle filled with rain and bugs with one of our fine Reality persons wearing a huge bag rig with 6 wireless... Or some Commercial person going show to show, different humans and workflow daily... and then ask them how can you make our life easier in post...? Seems funny in that mindset... This brings me back to, how can you make OUR life easier, How can you make the system better without any more burden financially or time related..... for US...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulluysavage Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Bring on more equipment. Bring on more work. I will sell production on the wonders of this new technology, and how much time and money it will save them, compared to my extra charges for renting more boxes and me hiring an extra assistant. Then I will make more money, have extra hands, and be a leader in providing a valuable service. Please everyone, don't screw it up by *giving it away for free.* The introduction of something new like this is an opportunity. Let's not mess it up for each other. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afewmoreyears Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 Bring on more equipment. Bring on more work. I will sell production on the wonders of this new technology, and how much time and money it will save them, compared to my extra charges for renting more boxes and me hiring an extra assistant. Then I will make more money, have extra hands, and be a leader in providing a valuable service. Please everyone, don't screw it up by *giving it away for free.* The introduction of something new like this is an opportunity. Let's not mess it up for each other. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Sorry, but history has not been kind to such reality... I agree, but the battle for what we are offering now rate wise is already conducted wearing full Armor.. I for one am so tired of this daily battle... it's getting worse, not better... Production folks think such advances should make their rates go down, not up...LOL Can't see them willfully paying more.. or for that matter guys on our end not giving it away for a hiring "edge"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 +1 AFMY --- the history of new technologies providing for raising rates is pretty ugly. The only thing that rises is the expectation that we will provide more for less and if we don't, they are sure they can find someone else who will. I work only in the feature film (movie) world and have always been fairly successful in negotiating a fair weekly rental package rate. I am often appalled at the posts I read where people are asking hoe they should charge for their equipment when the producer is suggesting that they only want to pay for the tracks they use --- don't try and rent me a 10 track recorder if you're only going to be using 4. This is crazy but it is the situation lots of people are faced with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted May 19, 2015 Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 More and more camera and sound manufacturers give access to their wifi protocol, it won't take much time until some savy person will write a "industry standard" app that will make the sound, camera, scipt, director, producer dep happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2015 I really do not want the solution to be wifi. I really want the solution to make things easier, but end up with good data that post wants, and that can help us on set. The solution cannot depend on a scripty, since so many shoots don't have them, and even when they are present they are often also often techno challenged. I'm not so hot for all this that I'm going to jump into anything that doesn't look pretty rugged and capable from the get-go. I was just looking for ideas on how this kind of thing could work out, and who was likely to be the one to do it. I am fairly sure that it will happen, and pretty soon. philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Duffy Posted May 20, 2015 Report Share Posted May 20, 2015 Wifi will take over the airwaves though - 802.11ah is Wifi in the 900MHz band, and there is a small chunk of the 700MHz auctioned spectrum that is declared open access. WiFi at 2.4GHz is too crowded, 5.6GHz has no range, but future WiFi products may be the answer. I predict that anything that isn't Wifi compatible in these bands will be labelled "bad players". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Tresch Posted May 21, 2015 Report Share Posted May 21, 2015 I really do not want the solution to be wifi. This? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I'm watching closely the advancements here, and I think we often could use better metadata integration all around. The biggest hiccup I see is not what new system will find it's way in the field, as this is in progress, but how the post programs will handle it. Already we have seen major shifts towards editing programs that destroy metadata. It didn't matter how much info is entered in production if it can't be used in post because x editing program didn't care to read it. I think the only truly successful system will not only integrate sound, camera, and script, but also work with the edit suite and vfx where all that info will end up. To me it's just as much about integrating better with post as it is within production. I'm excited about where things are going, but I think it's a long road still ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 I think the only truly successful system will not only integrate sound, camera, and script, but also work with the edit suite and vfx where all that info will end up. To me it's just as much about integrating better with post as it is within production. I'm excited about where things are going, but I think it's a long road still ahead. Isn't the Tentacle software a step towards that goal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Isn't the Tentacle software a step towards that goal? Tentacle sync system and software gets around part of the problem Wandering Ear is highlighting by being a closed system (this is not a criticism) where Tentacle Sync generates timecode (which can be considered primary metadata) and then accomplishes syncing with its own software. The problem of metadata being stripped out by edit software (in post) is a real problem. If we have to wait for Avid to develop a production friendly system integrated with our various production devices (recorders, sync boxes, etc.) I'm not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wandering Ear Posted May 22, 2015 Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Isn't the Tentacle software a step towards that goal? From my understanding the tentacle sync system is only a tc distribution system and auto syncing dailies software. This doesn't address metadata, just sync. I agree with Jeff, if we have to wait for Avid to get into the production world, it's not worth waiting for. I was more thinking along the lines of ambient etc working with adobe/premier to convince them to implement metadata properly. It's not just ixml data and track names (but hopefully this), also the in camera metadata, script notes (which many editors love) etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted May 22, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2015 Yike--do not wish for Avid to get into production sound! Please! The Tentacle thing is cool but doesn't solve the inter-device clocking issue at all. I'm not crazy about WiFi as a way of sharing data--bad luck so far--but hope new systems include a way to lock out unwanted users if they don't have this already. Ambient's system looks good, but it's pretty spendy for someone like me, and I'd have to learn more about how it will talk to cameras other than Alexa and recorders other than 788. (Does it? Other than TC?) philp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Sonnenfeld Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 The 6 series Beetle was announced at NAB this year which will open up Ambient to the newest generations of Sound Devices mixer/recorders. Per camera integration, the Alexa has the most metadata collection however the Master Lockit will also be able to connect to LANC ports on any camera which will allow Start/Stop time collection and logging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 Re Tentacle: Yeah, properly reading product info helps. Always. For a long time, I thought Avid/PT was the one combo that would pass on at least audio metadata into PT. Has this changed? FCP always was the bad system messing with everything - but it was the system they used on most of my recent projects. Right now on a project using FC X, workflow test showed all metadata entered on the 788T were still there in the AAF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted May 23, 2015 Report Share Posted May 23, 2015 For a long time, I thought Avid/PT was the one combo that would pass on at least audio metadata into PT. Has this changed? It has not changed, but the editors need to know what they are doing. E.g. Metadata won't survive an OMF export with embedded audio. Also, doing anything to the audio destructively, will create a new file with no (old) metadata. Now an export would contain the new file and the Metadata from set would be lost Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pkautzsch Posted May 25, 2015 Report Share Posted May 25, 2015 the editors need to know what they are doing. So maybe *that* has changed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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