MCooper Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 So I've always been fascinated by the history of sound recording, especially when it comes to early television. I know there have been some pretty interesting threads before regarding old techniques. But I am often surprised by the quality of recordings done even in early 60's. Take this clip for example, from the Andy Williams show in 1966. As far as I can tell, the dialogue and singing does not sound pre-recorded/lip-synced. How was this recorded? Just with one overhead (Fisher) boom mic? What kind of pattern? And a ton of reverb? If the orchestra was live, how was it recorded as well? Nothing ever seems off-axis. Maybe the frequency response is not as good as today, but nevertheless it is quite impressive. If anyone has any insight I'm very curious about how shows like this were made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rcoronado Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 beautiful recording. Here's what I got when I google image searched "Andy Williams behind the scenes" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Yep. That's the way those shows were done. Proper quiet sound stages, good trained voices, wide-pattern microphones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Looks as if they are using the RCA BK 5 on the booms. It's a ribbon mic. They were fairly common then. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCooper Posted May 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 Wow, thanks guys. Great photo. It's amazing to think about how much more complex the setup would probably be today, and how many variables there would be to make it sound as good as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Wexler Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 ...and how many more people would be involved in making the decision on how to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engaudio Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 How was the orchestra arranged, as in, where were they usually placed? Grant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted May 27, 2015 Report Share Posted May 27, 2015 How was the orchestra arranged, as in, where were they usually placed? Grant. I can't answer your question, but generally speaking the layout of an orchestra is already ideal. While there are some variations, the basic idea is to have the best sound and most well-balanced mix at the conductor's position and from there on to the audience. So if you only have one mic, place it right above the conductor. Place it well and that one mic can deliver a beautiful well-balanced sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Rose Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 Orchestras were often isolated acoustically, with a transparent shell or barriers, so they could see the action and react but their mics could be mixed without too much leakage into the singers' booms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WJJZ1069 Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 From the picture, it looks like the second microphone on the right was higher up. Is this to capture a little more reverb and different tones, or is it just focused on the back row of singers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Immoral Mr Teas Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 From the picture, it looks like the second microphone on the right was higher up. Is this to capture a little more reverb and different tones, or is it just focused on the back row of singers? Neither? Just sitting there waiting for the next position, fader down? We'll probably never know. Good to see the picture though (and thanks Crew for the probable mic identification - I know that ribbons were extensively used in radio studios). Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted May 28, 2015 Report Share Posted May 28, 2015 (edited) I worked at ATV Network north of London 1966 to 1969 We had four stages and a large bandroom We had Fisher and Mole Richardson booms in all studio and serviced dramas, music shows, chat shows etc For drama we usually used AKG D25 dynamics in the booms For music shows hand held Beyer M100 mikes were used as the radio mikes designed by ATV were not like what we have today. I often operated a long arm Fisher boom with a Sennheiser MKH804 (the long slotted tube) on music shows. The band room was used for pre-recording music or feeding it "live" to large foldback speakers in a studio for a singer. The Jack Parnell band was a full complement of piano, bass, drums,percussion, harp full brass section, and full string section. Sometimes we used a vocal booth for pre-recording and I worked on session with Tom Jones and Dusty Springfield. Microphones were a lot of AKG C28 some AKG D20 and a few AKG414. We did have some AKG C12's We produced color shows for America before England had color tv broadcasts I boom operated on a 12 ep series with Liberace (a great showman and good to work with) Operating a boom on a live show was quite a buzz (rigged with 2 mikes in case if a failure) and as some shows were networked I could sometimes get home and watch the show I had just worked on!! Great days of real television!!!!!!!! mike Edited May 28, 2015 by mikewest Date error Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) And I bet the talent back then on these shows did not mumble in a low voice. Edited May 29, 2015 by Marc Wielage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCooper Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Wow, Mike, thanks for the info. That period is so interesting, specifically the part about producing color TV for the US before it was available in England. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) This was an excellent piece to demonstrate how great the sound could be 50 years ago, better than most productions of this kind today, and it's because it was done with simplicity. Three singers singing live to a live off-camera orchestra (I'm betting the piano player was also conducting), ONE overhead dynamic mic for the singers (I was going to guess RE15 because of the obvious wide pattern, but the pic from the the series shows BK5s on the booms), no in-ear monitors, likely mixed mono to a single track in what seems to be a single take with two cameras. If foldback was used, I'm betting it was just with the singer's voices low in a speaker near the conductor. I'm guessing how the orchestra was miced, but I'll guess with just a few fairly distant mics for coverage and maybe one on the piano. Today it would have been done with each singer working close hand mics, also wired with hidden lavalieres on a separate mix (god only knows why), all wearing in-ear monitors, singing to prerecorded track, which means the performance could not have been as spontaneous and the voices would not have sounded nearly as well blended or as acoustically natural. GT PS... the BK5 has a wide cardioid pattern. Edited May 29, 2015 by Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Blankenship Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 (edited) Still a great V.O. mic on the right voice talent. The pattern is unique as it is wider horizontally than it is vertically at higher frequencies (unless you turn it 90 degrees, then it's the opposite): http://www.coutant.org/rcabk5/ . Edited May 29, 2015 by John Blankenship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCooper Posted May 29, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Great stuff, Glen. And as good as this recording sounded then, I'd love to know what the exact setup would sound like now, with the quality of digital audio. Pretty remarkable, I'm sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old school Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Here's Frank & Sammy with stage hands lifting him up and the BK 5 overhead. Great mic. Mine is old and beat up but still works well. Kind of like me. CrewC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Immoral Mr Teas Posted May 29, 2015 Report Share Posted May 29, 2015 Still a great V.O. mic on the right voice talent. The pattern is unique as it is wider horizontally than it is vertically at higher frequencies (unless you turn it 90 degrees, then it's the opposite): http://www.coutant.org/rcabk5/ . Wow, thanks John! A cardioid ribbon (labyrinth) designed for recording gunshots! I want one! Jez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted May 30, 2015 Report Share Posted May 30, 2015 Thanks Mark and Michael No actors did not mumble and experienced actors would delay their delivery until the boom swung to them!!!!!!!!! Even Liberace once asked during rehearsal "if I move back will that solve the shadow problem" Lew Grade a great cigar smoking Jewish entrepreneur in theatre and TV realised that money could be made by producing color shows for the USA, so we worked on huge light entertainment shows and dramas. We would shoot sequences in NTSC then wait for a 3 hour system change to PAL and do it all over again Great days and I could achieve my rostered week of work in 2.5 days (usually Friday to Sunday) and have the week off! mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Silberberg Posted June 4, 2015 Report Share Posted June 4, 2015 (edited) Yes that is amazing... At 3:50 you can hear some tapping which I think is Eddy Fisher (on the left) tapping his foot- which is kind of cool. Also a little distortion on "La" at 4:02 , and a few other places, but that probably happened somewhere in dubbing from one generation to the next . Think how great the original must have sounded. Edited June 4, 2015 by David Silberberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Parker Posted March 17, 2021 Report Share Posted March 17, 2021 This was so interesting. You folks have a treasure of knowledge. I’m glad to have stumbled upon it. I was briefly involved in some tech and sound for a local TV production in the Ozarks in the 80’s, but reading a few of these posts, makes me want to learn more about challenges early on in TV sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 Great topic!! And the replies... wow! I used to think all those Twilight Zones and Alfred Hitchcock Presents were all looped. Then I paid more attention and realized they were being boomed. What a shocker! I then asked around and discovered the way described above, including how REAL actors work. Must have been awesome. Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted March 18, 2021 Report Share Posted March 18, 2021 ADR in those days was anything but "automatic", and directors and actors didn't like doing it, so hardly anything was looped. They all had theatrical training and wanted to record a complete performance in one go, and would rehearse and shoot until they got what they wanted. A big reason why this worked was having very well trained boom ops who understood "dynamic" mic positioning very well, who could anticipate moves, loud and quiet bits, camera lens sizes and were very aware of where lighting was. The studios were factories and people went to work in them every day. When you work that much your chops get really good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmgoodin Posted March 19, 2021 Report Share Posted March 19, 2021 When I started in TV in the mid 60s we always used an Electro Voice EV 642 shotgun on the Fisher and Mole Richardson Prembulator booms for most dialog pickup. They sounded great and even won an Academy award. These had a good reach and eliminated a lot of unwanted noise from the humming lights overhead. http://www.coutant.org/data/642.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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