Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) I would be grateful if mixers working in mainland Europe could post up the price of the Sound Devices CL-12 at their local dealers who are selling the . The U.K. list prices were announced this week as £1950+VAT for the standard and £2850+VAT for the P&G version. At first glance these appear to be almost 50% more than the U.S. prices and 34% more than some European prices (before any Tax applied). Now of course shipping to Europe and local import taxes need to be applied and factored in but even with these the prices announced seem to me to be far higher than compared to other SD products. I have already been in contact with SD who have promised to review the pricing (not yet promised to lower it though) and it would be helpful to have as much information about prices elsewhere when they come back to me next week. Thank you. These are some prices I have already found... €1995 +VAThttp://www.nagrit.com/catalog/sound-devices-linear-fader-controller-for-the-series-p-4554.html €2995 +VAThttp://www.nagrit.com/catalog/sound-devices-alaia-linear-fader-controller-for-the-series-p-4555.html €2380+VAThttp://gruppe3.de/preislisten/23/SD-0020 €3620+VAThttp://gruppe3.de/preislisten/23/SD-0025 €2235+VAThttp://www.noyzboyz.nl/Producten/sound-devices/Recorder/sound-devices-cl12 €3395+VAThttp://www.noyzboyz.nl/Producten/sound-devices/Recorder/sound-devices-cl12-alaia-blonde-maple €2235 / €3395 (Alaia) +VAThttp://www.aemstore.nl/Locatie-Audio/Mixers/Tabletop-mixers/Sound-Devices-CL-12/ Edited November 7, 2015 by mattbacon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommLab Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 The first two on the list are from an italian dealer so you have to add IVA (VAT) that is +22% on that amount Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Same with Gruppe 3, but I think within the EU that's pretty much a given Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 That's true Brickbeard. It does say on the website. That would make little difference though as Matt has listed the UK prices as also requiring VAT addition at 20%. Including both countries VAT and based on current exchange rates : UK price basic CL12 = £2340 Nagrit (Italy) CL12 = £1737 Big difference. I think Matt is questioning this pricing because shipping to mainland Europe is roughly the same as the UK. Any additional cost incurred by European standards testing and alteration apply to both countries equally. I'm not sure of Italy's import tax on items, but even with the UK it should only be about 3 to 4% on an item like the CL12. Dealer margins may vary between countries, but are unlikely to reflect the kind of difference Matt is pointing to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 UK price basic CL12 = £2340 Nagrit (Italy) CL12 = £1737 Big difference. It's much easier and fairer to the company to compare prices without VAT added. Sound Devices won't benefit from it at all as they don't get to keep it and many professions can reclaim the VAT, so it's irrelevant for them, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 It's much easier and fairer to the company to compare prices without VAT added. Sound Devices won't benefit from it at all as they don't get to keep it and many professions can reclaim the VAT, so it's irrelevant for them, too. I only gave the complete figure in answer to Brickbeards post. It illustrates that the 'almost-the-same' VAT rates as irrelevant to the price differential. Matt has sensibly listed them ex VAT. At current exchange rates between £ and € prices ex VAT on the basic CL12 would be : UK = £1950 ITALY = £1424 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 The first two on the list are from an italian dealer so you have to add IVA (VAT) that is +22% on that amount Hi, you are correct that Value Added Tax (VAT) would need to be applied prior to purchase. I have made it clearer in my original post this what I meant. I am VAT registered so could claim back any VAT applied and it is easier to compare prices ex-VAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 The first two on the list are from an italian dealer so you have to add IVA (VAT) that is +22% on that amount Not if you are UK Vat registered. It is just a matter of giving the Italian supplier your registration number and it just becomes a paper exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 It's still a bit surprising that UK prices are so much higher. It cannot be explained with higher import tax, as that is a EU tax, I believe. Sure, daily cost, in particular rent, are higher in the UK (England anyway), but by that much? You should really all buy the CL-12 (and other things) in other EU countries, where they are cheaper. That is one of the positive things of being in the EU, it's really easy to buy in another country. And if you have a VAT ID, the dealer won't even add VAT so you don't need to reclaim it, so it's even easier, perhaps, than buying at home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efksound Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 (edited) The problem seems more to be that some European distributors are (or were) "officially" not allowed by SD to sell outside their respective countries (EU) That's what at least Luigi D'Anzelmo from Nagrit told me in 2009 when I was planning to buy a 788T from him. Because at that time the person in charge of the Spanish SD distribution was a joke...Don't know if things have changed now Edited November 9, 2015 by efksound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lancashire soundie Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Any suggestion that dealers in Europe aren't allowed to export to other countries in the EU sounds very, very illegal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arnold Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Any suggestion that dealers in Europe aren't allowed to export to other countries in the EU sounds very, very illegal. Looking at the legal info Matt dug up elsewhere I think you are correct. A market share of over 30% on a product seems to allow the parent company some restrictions, but buyers are still allowed to 'passively' approach distributors in other EU countries or purchase online. Restricting that appears to break EU law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted November 8, 2015 Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Because at that time the Spanish official SD distributor was a joke... Ha! if you knew what the state is in India, you would be happy. -vin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2015 Any suggestion that dealers in Europe aren't allowed to export to other countries in the EU sounds very, very illegal. All the responses from SD dealers I have passively contacted in mainland Europe have so far said they are not able to deliver to the uk because of their agreement with SD. Now until I speak with the appropriate authorities this week in the UK about this, it all sounds rather illegal to me. If I have understood European Anti-Competitive Practice (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-10-138_en.htm) it would seem that SD might in for a sticky position and will have some explaining to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdCapp Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thank you for sharing your concern over the CL-12 price in the UK. Note that Sound Devices does not have any sales policy or agreements that conflicts with EU Trade Law. Each company independently sets their pricing based on what they determine is appropriate based on their purchase price from Sound Devices, the cost to import and bring the products to a local market. We try and work closely with our Distribution partners so they can meet our recommended resale price. We will review the point of your concern with our Distribution partners. Our goal is that you have easy access to our products at a fair price with outstanding support! Ed Ed Capp Vice President of Sales and Marketing Sound Devices, LLC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bash Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Lets just deal with this VAT thing. Lets assume you are buying from a company in another EU country, and you are VAT registered, say Germany.. Lets assume you are buying from a different EU country (say the UK), and you are VAT registered. So for the purpose of this example, I am buying from UK, and I am VAT registered, and I am buying from a (say) German company, and they are VAT registered. I will provide my VAT number to the German company. They will charge no VAT on the sale. I will log the purchase on my VAT return, and will be charged VAT at UK rates on the purchase. I can reclaim that VAT as I am registered in the UK. The net effect is that I will pay no VAT for the purchase, even though it is from another EU country. This is a good thing.... (but there was a lot of paperwork done to make it all make sense). Kindest, sb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 9, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Thank you for sharing your concern over the CL-12 price in the UK. Note that Sound Devices does not have any sales policy or agreements that conflicts with EU Trade Law. Each company independently sets their pricing based on what they determine is appropriate based on their purchase price from Sound Devices, the cost to import and bring the products to a local market. We try and work closely with our Distribution partners so they can meet our recommended resale price. We will review the point of your concern with our Distribution partners. Our goal is that you have easy access to our products at a fair price with outstanding support! Ed Ed Capp Vice President of Sales and Marketing Sound Devices, LLC Ed I welcome your reply. Please can you publically clarify your position on the following... Do you (Sound Devices) or do you not prevent dealers and distributors within the EU from selling to end users in other EU countries?? I ask as I have had two dealers/distributors within the EU refuse to sell to me citing their agreement with Sound Devices?! How are you getting around the European Free Market requirements? Source: http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/service-providers/index_en.htm There is no difference between customers anywhere in the EU EU rules forbid discrimination between service recipients because of their nationality or where they live. This means: you are automatically entitled to receive services from businesses located in other EU countries you may not refuse or accord different treatment to prospective customers from other EU countries unless you have a valid reason to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bal232 Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 Matt has it absolutely correct. For example I can buy anything from Amazon as long as it's in Europe (I have purchased items from Germany and France) but they will not allow me to buy items from US/Canada/Japan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundtrane Posted November 9, 2015 Report Share Posted November 9, 2015 welcome Bal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 For those that interested in purchasing a CL-12 in the UK may I continue to suggest you hold fire. I have been in contact with both Ed Capp and Vojtech Pokorny at Sound Devices who have both promised to reply to my questions of CL-12 pricing by Friday. At this point it is my hope they may have convinced Shure to lower their price for the CL-12. I have sent an open letter to Sound Devices which I will publish in due course (I will wait for their reply this week so not inflame the discussions further). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian Spaeth Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 An interesting question would be if the dealers that refuse to sell SD products abroad have the same policy with Zaxcom or Lectrosonics products or if this only applies to SD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 An interesting question would be if the dealers that refuse to sell SD products abroad have the same policy with Zaxcom or Lectrosonics products or if this only applies to SD. True. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constantin Posted November 10, 2015 Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 An interesting question would be if the dealers that refuse to sell SD products abroad have the same policy with Zaxcom or Lectrosonics products or if this only applies to SD. I don't know which dealers we're talkibg about, of course, but I have bought various Zaxcom and Lectrosonics items in two different dutch shops. Without any problem whatsoever. I bought an SD 442 in a Swiss online shop without trouble, but this was several years ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Bacon AMPS Posted November 10, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2015 If you live in the UK and are serious about purchasing a CL-12 before the end of the year please PM me or email me directly at matt@soundman.tvwnk emoticIf you are serious about purchasing a CL-12 before the end of the year please PM me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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