jonny at coffey Posted November 25, 2008 Report Share Posted November 25, 2008 To All, I've noticed a lot of posts with issues regarding the RED's audio workflows. The solutions to most of these problems are much simpler than one might think. I'm happy to answer any questions about frame rates, timecode, jamsync, bit depth, or any other questions/concerns. Coffey Sound has taken an avid interest in the RED's audio compatibilities. We will be checking this message board daily to answer your questions. Or you can reach me at Coffey Sound. Thanks, Jonny Coffey Sound, Llc (323) 876-7525 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSBELLA Posted November 26, 2008 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Basically if all productions treat any Red camera gigs like a "film shoot", most sound mixers will be happy. for all the right reasons. Good Luck Frank, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSBELLA Posted January 25, 2009 Report Share Posted January 25, 2009 Always 29.97 with the RED Scott, does the red even have sempte tc? thats why mixers have to keep the red shhots as a "film shoot/double system" you want to send a mix track to the red go for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I record on an HHB Portadrive or a SD702T I use a timecode slate jammed to the recorder. I record a guide track on the RED by radio link Jamming the RED with timecode is only relevant if two cameras are being used mike www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Clements, CAS Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 I've only done one red shoot, so correct me please... As I understand it, red has 2 timecodes. One is used like Rec/Run as camera TC, and the second is for an external source reference (in our case sound). I also heard that some editors have trouble using the sound from the RAW files. It's harder to sync to than the sound mixers recordings. I made sure the Red had continuous TC fed to it via hardwire, as the camera wasn't moving much. Without the hardwire, I would have used a lockit box. The red was set to its version of "continuous jam". We could check a TC match, but only when rolling the camera. TC slate was jammed to my Deva running 29.97. Everything seemed to work great. Mike, I'm curious why you wouldn't jam sound TC into the Red when shooting one camera. Unless you are suggesting not to "jam" TC in, but instead make sure the red is constantly receiving EXT TC from sound instead of jamming. With 2 cameras, I would still do the same thing... make sure both cameras are getting a constant source of TC. I've also heard others mention camera operators that won't let them add a lockit or wireless feed to the camera. If I couldn't talk them out of that, I would make sure to at least Jam. One last thought if you must jam sync with no lockit box: A friend of mine suggested TC jam sync is more accurate when jamming your recorder TC from the Red, instead of jamming the Red from your recorder. He has done multiple tests with editors using this, with no TC drift. Spot on sync. Again, I've only done one red shoot, but that was what I uncovered in the process. Correct me where I'm wrong. scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted February 28, 2009 Report Share Posted February 28, 2009 Hi Scot, I started off always ataching a jammed Denecke SB1a to the RED I was subsequently told that the code was not significant for 1 camera shoot. Two cameras is a different matter I am told. I always use also a timecode slate as I am aware that editors love a sync point rather than try to align code especially if any offsets may be present. I have also learned the importance of the shooting being conducted film wise. Sound should roll first then camera and slating. If camera rolls first, the editor has to "make up" the sound file to match the longer length at the start of the video file. ( all this from an editor) My main area of focus has been the different "video split" playback systems. As I need to see this fed back through my headphone system I need to appreciate what is being used and how I feed or interface with it, let alone be ready to adjust audio in the event of the video being delayed by any system latency. I have learned a great deal from about a dozen commercial shoots and cannot wait to see multi camera RED shoots happening here for drama. Kind regards mike www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Clements, CAS Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 hmm... I'm curious why TC is not significant on a one camera shoot. Seems to me it would be the easiest way to sync. maybe the slate is easier.... interesting. The editors are the guys working with it, so if they say they don't need it, less hassle on our end. Oh the ever developing technology... how I love you. scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MT Groove Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 Always 29.97 with the RED I have heard it both ways 23.976 and 29.97. Is it a fact that you should always roll audio at 29.97 for the Red? I worked on a project with the Red a few months ago and rolled audio at 23.976. I have since spoken with the director who was at the editing stage and he said the audio synced fine. They were using Final Cut Pro. Is there a definitive answer on what rate we should roll sound at, or it really depends on the project, and who's doing the editing? I took my chances on that last project cause editorial wasn't on board until way after the shoot. However I would like to know, and I'm sure others here as well, what rate to roll audio with when it comes to the Red Camera. If someone could elaborate further on this issue, it will be very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikewest Posted March 1, 2009 Report Share Posted March 1, 2009 All my jobs in NZ are PAL hence 25fr I also service a lot of big commercial shoots (on film) that are NTSC. Take the stress out of your life and always ask what is needed! Do not guess, define or suggest! I always communicate with post and let them decide. Also with film it is important to define the syncing process. Is it in telecine or Avid? It makes a difference in delivery for the syncing process. They decide - you comply!!!!!! mike www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bie Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Hi, Jonny, Please, cam Red run 24, the tc of the syncbox connected to Red is 24 or 30? Thanks, Gabriel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabi Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 It has happened to me too. I was told by post that the RED would roll at 24 fps and that I should keep the TC setting on my 744T at 24 as well. I found that a bit strange and connected the RED TC output to my 774T just to check. And the 744 read 24fps, not 23,97. The RED files went straight to FCP and apparently the sync process was OK. No phone calls late at night. I guess if they ever want to release that film on DVD they will probably have to make a 2:3 pulldown at some point... It didn't make much sense to me at the time though. Gabi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wielage Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 I guess if they ever want to release that film on DVD they will probably have to make a 2:3 pulldown at some point... I agree, it is confusing. But you can take a 24.00 videotape (or file), record it to something like HDCam or HDCam-SR, and with the push of one switch, play it back in post at 23.98. Everything gets slowed down by about .1%. Then, the tape can easily be used for home video release (525, 625, HD, DVD, whatever). Just make sure all the sound editors and re-recording mixers know the project is 24.00 and they can adjust accordingly. Me personally, I think it makes more sense to shoot the whole thing at 23.98, knowing that when you do the D.I. back out to film, you just up the speed by .1% to 24.00, and everything is fine. Again, there's an audio speed-up required, but it's easily handled as long as all the people involved know about it. --Marc W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 A lot of Red users are "moving up" from 24P, which many incorrectly said was "true 24fps". These same people, and other newbies, may think that the Red is "true 24fps", which it isn't - usually. As we have discussed in other threads, many Red users are inexperienced. It is VERY unlikely that ANY video shoot is shooting true 24fps, and if they are, then a quick call to a professional like Marc W. would quickly set them straight. In the case of 23.98, which the camera is probably running, then both 23.98 and 29.97 TC on your recorder are okay. In some cases, as I have experienced, some "telecine" systems have trouble handling 23.98 TC. While I'm sure this is a thing of the past, I will always run 29.97. It'll never be wrong. My opinion regarding the Red on a high end show is to treat it as a film camera, but feeding reference audio if they want it. If it's a low end show, then feed them cabled or quality wireless audio (which is probably what they'll use), and hit sticks with or without a TC slate as your back-up sync plan if something goes wrong with the internal audio. Regarding clockits and such. Use 'em if you got 'em, but if they won't "let" you put one on, then don't. Be done with it! If they have multiple cameras which require sync for their purposes, then let them handle it. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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