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First blimp


Donald Kauffman

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Hey guys

So my beginner setup is developing. I picked up an sd 442 which I'm running into a tascam Dr40, have a pair of dpa 4060s for some great ambience recordings, and just got a second hand petrol bag to house it all. Now what I really want is a directional mic in a blimp, possibly an m/s blimp with a cardioid to start, adding a bidirectional later. 

 

What I'm unsure of is whether I should break the bank and go for a schoeps CMC or sennheiser mkh cardioid and be done with it (buy once cry once!), or start with more of a budget mic set up (audio technica for example)? Would those types of high end mics be overkill for a relative beginner to field recording (if not a beginner to audio in general)? 

 

I should say that I don't want a shotgun right now as I don't plan to record dialogue. This is primarily for field/soundscape recording and spot fx. I want to be able to capture very high quality sound but I feel perhaps I'm jumping the gun. Unfortunately where I'm based I don't have an opportunity to test out different mics to evaluate them myself. 

Any advice greatly appreciated as always 

Oh and if anyone has any recommendations for other mics that might be suitable please share. Thanks

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If you are not recording dialogue on a shoot with cameras and numerous other people and equipment involved i think you can afford to experiment a little more than you would otherwise. Any issue with equipment on shoot as i describe would be very expensive for the production (and career) so we are duty bound to have the most reliable kit available and redundancy on top. That is not to say field recordists of ambiance, spot fx etc have time to waste but i think the pressures are different and for someone starting out in the area you are, there may well be merits in developing your own techniques, methodologies and kit choices.

btw loved your work in 'Adaptation' (not the quite the same spelling i know, but i couldn't resist :-) 

atb,

dan.

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If you're planning a field recording kit, go for the mkh range. 

As you already have an omni pair, try the mkh40/30 m/s set for a compact blimp.
low noise, moisture resistant, high resale value..

I'm currently using a mkh40/30 set in cinela pianisimo, hands down the best combo I've ever used.

listen here:

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On 12/1/2015, 8:36:54, engaudio said:

If you're planning a field recording kit, go for the mkh range. 

As you already have an omni pair, try the mkh40/30 m/s set for a compact blimp.
low noise, moisture resistant, high resale value..

I'm currently using a mkh40/30 set in cinela pianisimo, hands down the best combo I've ever used.

listen here:

Yes they sound great. Are sennheiser gradually trying to replace them with the 8000 range? I'm just wondering as Thomann doesn't seem to stock the fig 8 mkh30 anymore. 

 

Also the price is that bit more to maybe put it out of reach. The Schoeps m/s set up is stretching it for me already as is that bit cheaper. And I do like the option of adding, say, an mk41 capsule at some point if I want to do dialogue (bit more cost effective). Ideally I'd like to try the two out to see if I have a preference based solely on the sound. I guess I'll do some more research. Thanks for the reply

On 12/1/2015, 3:24:08, daniel said:

If you are not recording dialogue on a shoot with cameras and numerous other people and equipment involved i think you can afford to experiment a little more than you would otherwise. Any issue with equipment on shoot as i describe would be very expensive for the production (and career) so we are duty bound to have the most reliable kit available and redundancy on top. That is not to say field recordists of ambiance, spot fx etc have time to waste but i think the pressures are different and for someone starting out in the area you are, there may well be merits in developing your own techniques, methodologies and kit choices.

btw loved your work in 'Adaptation' (not the quite the same spelling i know, but i couldn't resist :-) 

atb,

dan.

Ha yes I like the Adaptation reference. So are you saying that you believe experimenting with a more humble set up might be the best way to start out? I don't want to compromise too much on quality, however I also don't want to pay more just because something is industry standard and won't let you down in a high pressured shoot situation

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Not necessarily a more humble set up, although i don't preclude that either. I know my friend the The Immoral Mr Teas (jez) who posts on this board, uses sennheisers from 815t to 8040s but also uses high voltage b+k 'precision' pairs and others besides. There are 'dumby heads' and the soundfield mics (which I doubt many have tried to do dialogue with even though they fit a blimp) and similarly the sennheiser esfera system. I believe folks have used contact mics for recording very quite sounds like ant footsteps (not what you asking about I know). Its great to to experiment with different techniques (in a way I find hard to justify in my general working practice). You were of course asking about a blimp set up so I don't think you'd regret having the mkh40/30 rig engaudio suggests for the coincident, low noise, easily blimp-able, weather resistant and high resale reasons he puts forward. It just seems from my side of the fence, having a diverse range of techniques and kit is part of the fun, development of your library/showreel and potential marketing of your skill set. I would save some money for a modest boom pole as well, even if you're not doing dialogue - it's a lot easier to avoid your own noise than when holding the pistol grip in hand, even better to have a stand and save your arms.

d

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks Daniel. Yes I do in fact have a couple of contact mics which are great for experimenting. Right now I'm really trying to figure out whether to start out with a cardioid or supercardioid. I'm thinking of capturing outdoor sound fx where a lot of rejection could be desirable but then that could be at the expense of even slightly off-axis sources ( or a moving source), and also the more natural sound of a cardioid (not to mention low end response).

 

I did previously say that I wouldn't be recording dialogue but in fact I may be getting involved in a project soon where it may be necessary. So I'm also trying to factor that in as well. I'm probably trying to find one mic to do it all and I know that isn't possible. But any advice on polar pattern? By the way I have a budget of €2000 which needs to include at least one mic, a blimp, and now possibly a boom pole (thanks for the tip)

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There was a thread about much the same thing a few weeks ago and I pointed the OP to various bits available on the used market. One of them - an MKH30, plus cables and Rycote - seems still to be available, although there is much interest in it. Find it here:

https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=53547

MKH40s are easier to find used: MKH50s, not so much...

Best of luck,

John

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11 hours ago, soundmanjohn said:

There was a thread about much the same thing a few weeks ago and I pointed the OP to various bits available on the used market. One of them - an MKH30, plus cables and Rycote - seems still to be available, although there is much interest in it. Find it here:

https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=53547

MKH40s are easier to find used: MKH50s, not so much...

Best of luck,

John

This is a good deal as it includes the blimp. It makes the heart of an MS system, you add a an mkh 8040/8050/50 and pole and still be under £2k.

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8 hours ago, daniel said:

This is a good deal as it includes the blimp. It makes the heart of an MS system, you add a an mkh 8040/8050/50 and pole and still be under £2k.

A good deal yes but with my budget being in euros it would eat into it significantly (€1200) leaving about 800 left for mid mic and boom pole. But it's a possibility. I just don't want to leave myself without a mid mic as that's what I feel I'll get the most use out of for now anyway.

I'm still pretty stuck on the cardioid vs super/hyper though. Could there be issues using a hyper as a mid mic?

21 hours ago, soundmanjohn said:

There was a thread about much the same thing a few weeks ago and I pointed the OP to various bits available on the used market. One of them - an MKH30, plus cables and Rycote - seems still to be available, although there is much interest in it. Find it here:

https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=53547

MKH40s are easier to find used: MKH50s, not so much...

Best of luck,

John

Thanks John yes I was following that post and looked into some of the links you posted. Would you have an opinion on the cardioid vs super / hyper question for field recording/fx recording...?

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800 euro could probably get you there as you don't need a long or fancy boom pole, and while you look for the bargain 'M' mic you could hire some of the different options - have a listen. On the other hand here's another option (a friend of mine paid a lot more for one of these than this btw and you wont want to booming much dialogue with it. ): https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=42572

If you are looking for a stereo system using components that can be re purposed for mono dialogue capture you would need to factor some extra expenditure eg a better boom pole, mono rycote and suspension (you could easily spend €1000 on just those 2). Of all the mid mic options you've mentioned and because dialogue capture seems to be a factor as well, my preference would be the 50 but i've not used all the options mentioned and ymmv.

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4 hours ago, daniel said:

800 euro could probably get you there as you don't need a long or fancy boom pole, and while you look for the bargain 'M' mic you could hire some of the different options - have a listen. On the other hand here's another option (a friend of mine paid a lot more for one of these than this btw and you wont want to booming much dialogue with it. ): https://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=42572

If you are looking for a stereo system using components that can be re purposed for mono dialogue capture you would need to factor some extra expenditure eg a better boom pole, mono rycote and suspension (you could easily spend €1000 on just those 2). Of all the mid mic options you've mentioned and because dialogue capture seems to be a factor as well, my preference would be the 50 but i've not used all the options mentioned and ymmv.

I probably should be more clear re dialogue. Really I expect a lot of the dialogue I record will be in the form of audio interviews where booming often won't be necessary. And I'd certainly hope to get away with one  Rycote (m/s) for the near future anyway. In terms of mid mic mono recordings, I want to give myself the best option to isolate sounds to be used for sound design and sometimes in electroacoustic compositions, and to capture relatively clean direct recordings in untreated rooms, while retaining a natural sound. The 50 definitely could be a contender and also the MK41. I'm drawn to the Schoeps for it's modularity.

I'll have to look into that stereo Neumann as I'm not familiar with it. Thanks for the link 

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Hi again Donald,

 

I'll try to give my opinion on much that's been discussed without quoting (my ol' browser still struggles with JWS so I'm writing and pasting this in) and I'll save my anti-MS rant for the other thread if I can be bothered (heh heh).

 

Actually, unlike Itaru, you mention 'field recording' (art? nature sounds?) rather than film FX as your prime concern so MS might well be an area that serves you well. Its certainly interesting and fun. Its worth pointing out that MS is a technique rather than just a recording system, and you'll get to know and understand it best in the studio - experimenting with relative levels and played back over speakers (rather than headphones) - than you will recording in the field. Damn, I'll jump straight into the **** and state that it doesn't even need a figure 8 mic … just two channels of audio (related but not identical) and some analogue or DAW system of applying the maths.

 

What I do think is that you might regret blowing over half your budget on a one-trick pony. Whilst you probably wouldn't have any regrets in the long term investing in any of MKH 40, MKH 50, MKH80xx ditto, CMC41 … you might just think what you could have bought with that MKH30 money. On the other hand, except for the two Schoeps capsules MK8 and MK6 there's not really a substitute for the MKH30 for convenience / field work, although there are a great many more choices of Figure 8 studio size mics. The two most obvious alternatives I know of are the AKG CK94 capsule for Blue Line and the Ambient ATE208 Emesser (neither of which I have any experience of). The Octava do a capsule, but it being back to back cardioids I don't know how or if they apply phase reverse to one … not that it matters that much but if it doesn't it will have less cancellation at the axis that a true fig 8 naturally creates. (Is this important to your needs?) However, I'm not sure how much cheaper the Ambient or AKG will work out than Schoeps or Sennheiser, so if your heart is set on an MS rig for constant use I'd give both of those the thumbs up.

 

Looking for budget budget options for Figure 8 I came across the Studio Projects B3, the discontinued C3 and the twin capsule LSD2 (I like the latter's name). They're all side address 3 pattern mics (om, car, 8), round but fat, but not so big they couldn't do a fat rycote. The B3 is only $160 in the US, so if you're just wanting to experiment with a side channel it might be a decent first figure 8 (and your first suicide mic when you upgrade). The LSD2 ($500) is like a cheap SM69, and would allow semi-variable MS (but no hyper or wide cardioid) or blumlein pair, or even the XY of Ambisonic WXY(Z) if you wanted to start experimenting further in that direction (when you get a 4+ channel recorder) … taping your DPA on top. I have no idea how good or bad they actually are, but a B3 or a second hand C3 might just do the job of starting you off on MS and deciding if this is the right technique for you. Personally speaking, an interest in two channel MS will probably lead to experiments in Double MS and WXY(Z) techniques before long so you'll want that second cardioid mic after all.

 

Mid mics for MS: your decision - everything from omni to another figure 8 has its place. (As does shotgun, as the RSM191, MKH418 and several documentary blimps can testify to). Turn twin fig 8 MS by 45 degrees and you've got a Blumlein pair. A wide cardioid will give a 'forgiving' centre and a hyper will be much tighter. Cardioid in the middle of the two. If you don't 'need' the tight hyper for dialogue it doesn't really matter what you choose, soundstage-wise; they all have a place and any one doesn't tower over the others. Your choices. What will you be pointing at? "It depends". My choice for Friday = cardioid.

 

I kind of wish when I bought my own first mics that the current cheap options were about, and I'd seriously consider  the cheaper options like Oktavas, SE Electronics and Rode for a stereo pair (preferably with interchangable capsules) for a starter kit - it will become your surround channels when you first upgrade and your suicide mics after that, so its not necessarily a bad investment. (Also check out previous recommendations of other mics like the Line Audio etc etc). A serviceable stereo kit might come to an eighth of your budget for two mics. Although I've said you shouldn't regret buying a Schoeps or Sennheiser, you might regret not getting a matching pair if you're looking to record a lot of stereo, which I assume you are. My vote for quality/price is a pair of MKH 8040s, though I prefer the versatility of the MKH40 for dialogue (since we still don't have a bass cut module that comes anywhere close to the Cut 1 & 2 of Schoeps).

 

Those two new Rode micro boompoles look interesting for field work, although I'm not sure a big zep would sit well on them. I intend experimenting with both with lightweight (cheap) tripod bases for fieldwork and travel. As the bigger zeps go, I'd say the AE is my optimum size, although you might need the longer one if you end up with a longer mic. The shorter rycote egg is cute and convenient, but I ended up adapting the base so it had two tightening screws rather than just one plus a peg. Although I often forego full rycotes and just use softies in the field especially if travelling lightish (I'm not 'fighting the elements' to get dialogue and if there's wind its often just 'bad recording conditions' for what I'm after so I don't record!) Much easier to sort an MS rig with a rycote though. You might even squeeze one into a slimmer (normal) rycote by having an extra ring of foam and nylon around the mic elements inside - seen this done with the slimmer RSM191 single body. The more air the better of course, but if there's that much wind do you really want the recording? A slimmer body is sturdier and easier to deal with. Still, a fat rycote will give you more options, especially if you end up squeezing 8040s or CCMs into stereo angles within (tricky but do-able).

 

So to summarise:

I think in your position you shouldn't restrict yourself to a two-mic MS setup (although I concur that might suit your needs perfectly).

Rather than an expensive side mic and a 'cheap mid option' I would consider an expensive mid mic (or pair thereof) and experimenting at first with a cheaper side option.

Before making any decision play about (on Reaper or another DAW) with MS encoding, decoding and variation, using standard LR recordings as well as MS recordings made by other people.

Download from the Rycote website 'The Stereophonic Zoom' by Michael Williams and study the range of techniques therein with angling(?) and spacing omni, cardioid and hyper mics (including ORTF etc)

 

Best, Jez

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