Small Corporate Sound Kit (feedback requested)

[Dan Smith]

I'd really appreciate some feedback on this little sound package I'm putting together. I have a corporate client looking to invest in a sound package for use on its various in-house and marketing shoots. They asked me to provide a preliminary quote for a package, just to get the ball rolling.

 

A little background: They use a lot of different sound mixers, and travel all over the world to sometimes remote locations. So they are hoping this kit will help there be more consistency in the sound from project to project (as a lot of the time they can't afford a true post mix).  Another reason is that the media team in the corporate office would have some proper sound equipment to start using for in-house studio shoots (which they are ramping up on). The media team would just be using the mics mostly, going direct to camera; that kind of thing. And lastly, for their budgeting, moving equipment costs out of each project's budget. And they got the budget to spend! (lucky them!)

 

Again, they travel all over the world so it needs to be small and portable, but pretty comprehensive. The VAST majority of the shoots would be sit down interviews either inside or outside (thus the two boom kits and wired lavs). But there are also times when they want to do run and gun type work and a standard boom and 2 lav kit would work.

 

I put together a little B&H wishlist of things off the top of my head. I only spent a few minutes on this and some things are just placeholders for now (like the cheap XLR cables and boom kits). If they get the greenlight I'll be taking this over to Trew and specing out all the details, this is just a start. Any glaring omissions or feedback?

 

THANKS VERY MUCH!!!

 

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/wishlistDetail.jsp/li/74A4C71258

[Jack Norflus]

My advice is to go to one of the many dealers that specialize in production sound - they will be able to give you a list and make sure you are covered with all the little bits and bobs that are often overlooked. 

B and H is a big box store - sure they can sell you the gear but they will not be able to give you the service and support that you need - especially for a kit that will be used by many people.

Contact one of the usual suspects and build a relationship with them . You won't regret it.

[Christopher Mills]

Rycote supershield instead of WS4... easier to use and rig.. equal results.

Add  wind protection for the MKH50

consider an mkh-416 instead of the Rode NTG-3... I find they are better RF shielded. They sound very similar, and are both very durable, however.

Absolutely agree about having one of  our sound vendors package this for you..

 

Just re-read your note about travel..

consider the newer "wide band" Tx-RX sets (lectro, Zax, Wisycom) that cover 3 blocks instead of 1....

and the 2 channel receivers.. more compact, lighter, more flexible for varying jobs.

even if I give up wattage for bandwidth, in most interview/field situations, the bandwidth choice is MUCH more important.

 

 

 

[chrismedr]

agreed, best to discuss this with the dealers.

also very difficult to give good advice on these things without knowing the camera gear and full workflow etc...
personally not sure how useful a timecode slate is on corporate shots

 

[Dan Smith]

Yes, as I mentioned in the last paragraph, if they decide to move forward with this, I will taking it to Trew to get into all the details. They have taken care of me before. I'm just giving them ballpark figures to start the conversation. 

22 minutes ago, Christopher Mills said:

Rycote supershield instead of WS4... easier to use and rig.. equal results.

Add  wind protection for the MKH50

consider an mkh-416 instead of the Rode NTG-3... I find they are better RF shielded. They sound very similar, and are both very durable, however.

Absolutely agree about having one of  our sound vendors package this for you..

 

Just re-read your note about travel..

consider the newer "wide band" Tx-RX sets (lectro, Zax, Wisycom) that cover 3 blocks instead of 1....

and the 2 channel receivers.. more compact, lighter, more flexible for varying jobs.

even if I give up wattage for bandwidth, in most interview/field situations, the bandwidth choice is MUCH more important.

 

 

 

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check out the supershield. I haven't used that yet. Adding wind protection for the senny.

I'll look into a wide-band kit. That's a very good point, bandwidth would likely trump wattage in most of their situations. 

And a dual receiver! Of course. What was I thinking?! 

[Derek H]

Couple thoughts..

-This is a lot of complicated gear for amateurs to be using. I was thinking more along the lines of 302 mixer with a breakaway.

-1650 fully loaded is a back breaker. Consider who will be hauling it and if smaller cases would work better.

- try the portabrace tactical harness before you buy. If I was hired to use this gear and had to use that vest I would really hate you! ; )

- Wideband would be good but if you're just coordinating two wireless channels I think it's less of a factor. Limits you to Lectro LR, not bag friendly, or Zaxcom, not novice friendly.

 

 

[Dan Smith]

3 minutes ago, Derek H said:

Couple thoughts..

-This is a lot of complicated gear for amateurs to be using. I was thinking more along the lines of 302 mixer with a breakaway.

-1650 fully loaded is a back breaker. Consider who will be hauling it and if smaller cases would work better.

- try the portabrace tactical harness before you buy. If I was hired to use this gear and had to use that vest I would really hate you! ; )

- Wideband would be good but if you're just coordinating two wireless channels I think it's less of a factor. Limits you to Lectro LR, not bag friendly, or Zaxcom, not novice friendly.

 

 

This gear would be for professional sound mixers to use. This is a multi-billion dollar company working with industry pros. They already have hundreds of thousands invested in live sound PAs, cameras, lighting, grip, media servers, edit suites etc. This is a corporate decision to move sound equipment from project budgets to a capital budget. Up until now they've just rented from the mixers. Some projects (due to the last minute nature) would have to go without a sound guys because they couldn't get budget for the op and the kit. For them it makes sense because they can have a known cost and setup, with its weight etc. for when they travel.  And it's not my decision to make, they just want me to get a kit together.

-The case would go on a truck or plane pallet(s) with the rest of the gear. I'll likely add another case or two for the option of splitting the kit into smaller cases for different use. Great point.

-Yeah I haven't tried any of these newer tactical harnesses. I've only used a basic harness, which I would assume most guys would bring their own if they're picky. I will have everything inventoried to send to the mixers beforehand so they know what they are getting. Maybe just not get a harness until they get some feedback if it is actually needed.

-Very good point on the lectros LR. For now I'll stick with what I have because they cost is similar. That would be a question to take up with the guys at Trew and see what would be best. 

Thanks for the feedback.

[atheisticmystic]

34 minutes ago, Dan Smith said:

This gear would be for professional sound mixers to use. This is a multi-billion dollar company working with industry pros. They already have hundreds of thousands invested in live sound PAs, cameras, lighting, grip, media servers, edit suites etc. This is a corporate decision to move sound equipment from project budgets to a capital budget. Up until now they've just rented from the mixers. Some projects (due to the last minute nature) would have to go without a sound guys because they couldn't get budget for the op and the kit. For them it makes sense because they can have a known cost and setup, with its weight etc. for when they travel.  And it's not my decision to make, they just want me to get a kit together.

-The case would go on a truck or plane pallet(s) with the rest of the gear. I'll likely add another case or two for the option of splitting the kit into smaller cases for different use. Great point.

-Yeah I haven't tried any of these newer tactical harnesses. I've only used a basic harness, which I would assume most guys would bring their own if they're picky. I will have everything inventoried to send to the mixers beforehand so they know what they are getting. Maybe just not get a harness until they get some feedback if it is actually needed.

-Very good point on the lectros LR. For now I'll stick with what I have because they cost is similar. That would be a question to take up with the guys at Trew and see what would be best. 

Thanks for the feedback.

-Professional Sound Mixers prefer their own gear.

-The only two times I was asked to help a "big" corporation put together in-house sound kits, they both ended up lonely Pelican cases because:

     1-The in-house staff were being re-purposed as sound techs, and their hearts weren't in it.

     2- With no dedicated sound professional in-house, gear went badly neglected, badly packed, badly mishandled. 

-Good gear is useless without the Senatorial Archers..

 

They've got billions, good for them.

Sound sense...not so much

good luck,

Steven

[Christopher Mills]

I am not a likely hire for your company under those conditions, because I will charge you as much for my labor as I would for my labor and gear combined.

 

[Dan Smith]

Guys, guys. Sorry. I don't mean to come off defensive. You're preaching to the choir here. I'm a post mixer, with a background in broadcast in production. I realize this isn't an ideal business decision from our perspective.

I hope they don't get the gear because of all the things you've brought up. I'm not here to defend their business decisions. I'm just trying to help out a personal friend that works for the company. I was just giving the backstory and explanation so you can understand the gear choices I was making. Just looking for some feedback on the kit itself. Thanks again.

[Christopher Mills]

18 minutes ago, Dan Smith said:

Guys, guys. Sorry. I don't mean to come off defensive. You're preaching to the choir here. I'm a post mixer, with a background in broadcast in production. I realize this isn't an ideal business decision from our perspective.

I hope they don't get the gear because of all the things you've brought up. I'm not here to defend their business decisions. I'm just trying to help out a personal friend that works for the company. I was just giving the backstory and explanation so you can understand the gear choices I was making. Just looking for some feedback on the kit itself. Thanks again.

No offense taken. 

[Philip Perkins]

They are making a bad business decision, as you know.  I've heard of companies trying to do this exact thing with various generations of gear over the entire 40+ year span of my life working in sound, and the outcome is always the same. They will end up with newbies and wannabes, because mixers with any level of expertise at all don't use other people's location packages.  This isn't true in sound reinforcement or post production so much, but the peculiarities of location sound make trying to work this way a bad idea generally.  The overall price of a decent location package has dropped hugely in the time I've been working, so it's just not that hard for someone to get started anymore with their own gear, which they will know and have prepped for the job.  I would ask the people who want to do this buying of gear--are they going to hire the local soundies they want to use it to come in for a prep day or half-day as in the camera dept?   If there is an equipment failure that is due to the soundie's unfamiliarity with the package, whose fault is it?  And what is this about variations between audio recordings from shoot to shoot that they think will be cured by having their own gear?  I would submit that in light of what I've said above, going this way will make that problem worse, not better.

 

[TomBoisseau]

How are they going to deal with the differing laws of various countries governing the use of wireless microphones, what frequencies are considered legal, and whether or not a license is required?

 

Tom

[Dan Smith]

 

20 minutes ago, Philip Perkins said:

They are making a bad business decision, as you know.  I've heard of companies trying to do this exact thing with various generations of gear over the entire 40+ year span of my life working in sound, and the outcome is always the same. They will end up with newbies and wannabes, because mixers with any level of expertise at all don't use other people's location packages.  This isn't true in sound reinforcement or post production so much, but the peculiarities of location sound make trying to work this way a bad idea generally.  The overall price of a decent location package has dropped hugely in the time I've been working, so it's just not that hard for someone to get started anymore with their own gear, which they will know and have prepped for the job.  I would ask the people who want to do this buying of gear--are they going to hire the local soundies they want to use it to come in for a prep day or half-day as in the camera dept?   If there is an equipment failure that is due to the soundie's unfamiliarity with the package, whose fault is it?  And what is this about variations between audio recordings from shoot to shoot that they think will be cured by having their own gear?  I would submit that in light of what I've said above, going this way will make that problem worse, not better.

 

These are all great considerations. I'll pass these onto my friend. Obviously with a setup like this it opens up a new can of worms. 

[sarcanon]

4 minutes ago, Philip Perkins said:

And what is this about variations between audio recordings from shoot to shoot that they think will be cured by having their own gear?

My thoughts exactly. I mean, it's so obvious, it hurts to say it, but good production audio is good production audio. If they're getting anything less, the odds are extremely low it's due to the gear alone.

I realize the OP is in a difficult position, but if it were my good friend who was asking for assistance, I would use all my persuasive abilities to talk him out of this misguided plan to "save money". But having worked for multi-national corporations before, I know how their finance people think, and I'm sure this whole hare-brained plan is the product of some pencil-pushing bean-counter who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. 

 

[Dan Smith]

5 minutes ago, TomBoisseau said:

How are they going to deal with the differing laws of various countries governing the use of wireless microphones, what frequencies are considered legal, and whether or not a license is required?

 

Tom

Up until this point they'd just used shotguns on the cameras or a c-stand boom. Just a wired lav would be a big improvement. The bigger overseas shoots that require lavs etc, they would continue getting a local sound guy that would know the ins and outs.

3 minutes ago, sarcanon said:

My thoughts exactly. I mean, it's so obvious, it hurts to say it, but good production audio is good production audio. If they're getting anything less, the odds are extremely low it's due to the gear alone.

I realize the OP is in a difficult position, but if it were my good friend who was asking for assistance, I would use all my persuasive abilities to talk him out of this misguided plan to "save money". But having worked for multi-national corporations before, I know how their finance people think, and I'm sure this whole hare-brained plan is the product of some pencil-pushing bean-counter who thinks he's smarter than everyone else. 

 

The comment I made on consistency was mostly geared toward the ability to use the same mics etc. for in-house studio shoots, as they use for an on-location shoot. Right now sound is an afterthought and they rig up whatever happens to be in a camera bag. They don't have anything beside a few pocket recorders, shotgun mics, and iphone lavs etc. that just float around. They want consistency in that there is a case with the sound equipment they can take out with their cameras. 

They really don't need much more than some booms and lavs for their in-studio shoots and when a camera-op is going solo. But with their budget my buddy suggested spec'ing and entire package with recorder. Now hopefully with me putting this kit together, they'd be calling me in most of these instances when they need a sound guy,  but I want to make the kit standard enough that others would feel comfortable if put in that position. I highly doubt that will happen. 

You hit the nail on the head. This is coming from up the line. And I can see how it makes sense from that perspective. They own all the cameras, lights and studios, "why don't we own sound equipment?"  

I highly doubt the entire thing will happen. I hope it doesn't. But nonetheless I'm just helping a friend out. 

 

[chrismedr]

it's actually an interesting questions:

cameramen are asked to work with externally rented or cooperage owned gear all the time, very common there, always been.

but as Philip Perkins says, they've been usually spending a day in prep testing things making sure everything works. it's generally very simple to set up a sit-down interview with any decent gear and 99% of the time it will be ok.

problems arise if there's suddenly special things required or a cable has a bad connection that nobody noticed because nobody cares. and who'll get the blame is obvious. so it's understandable that people who have the choice will work with personal gear and you're left with people who have no choice.

if sound consistency is really the main concern, you could suggest to just buy two mics with suspension and wind protection and provide that to the sound person. most will be fie with using somebody else's MKH50 i guess.

pretty sure the same MKH50 in an office in NY and in production room in Shanghai will sound just as different as a MK41 and a 416 in these locations ; )

 

[Philip Perkins]

You know--I think these folks SHOULD have a small package, like a shotgun, a boom, a lav, maybe wireless, so they can do really small stuff on their own if they want.  It should be a part of their traveling kit.  But if they think the job they plan to do will need a dedicated soundie, doing a setup beyond what the shooter+producer-director can handle, then put that stuff away and let their local-hire soundie use their own gear.  There were be far fewer problems believe me.  If they are having issues about consistency of interview audio across a long doc etc, well that's partly down to the choice (if they even get a choice) of locations--that and the individual voices are much greater variables than the sound gear in use.  I deal with this kind of situation all the time in post--that's part of rerecording mixer's job, to make it all sound as consistent as possible.

[RPSharman]

That's a pretty good idea. Suggest two ENG poles that collapse well, with two C-stand holders. Get an MKH50 and a 416 with indoor and outdoor mounts/wind protection. For what they're doing, it doesn't really matter if the two mics don't match in two person interviews, but each will be good on its own for different situations. Get one of those inexpensive mixer/interfaces/recorders for DSLR cameras, if that's what they use, or a 302 as suggested. Then get two hard-wired COS11s. Also a handful of quality XLRs of various lengths. They don't need a slate. They could get a Zoom8 to record, just in case, but still output to camera. But better to keep it simple.

If the shoot requires wireless, or separate system recording and TC, then they should bring in a local mixer with gear. We all know that anyone willing to work with someone else's gear is either not very experienced, or will charge the same regardless.

[pkautzsch]

Re wireless:

I would not go for one dual Rx in such a setup. Yes it's convenient but on case of failure you lose both channels. Always have a backup.

Honestly for that kind of use I'd go for two G3 kits. Wider tuning range than Lectro, easy to use, range is good enough for what's basically a simple Eng shoot.

They should hire a professional for everything that needs more.

 

[TomBoisseau]

2 minutes ago, pkautzsch said:

Re wireless:

I would not go for one dual Rx in such a setup. Yes it's convenient but on case of failure you lose both channels. Always have a backup.

Honestly for that kind of use I'd go for two G3 kits. Wider tuning range than Lectro, easy to use, range is good enough for what's basically a simple Eng shoot.

They should hire a professional for everything that needs more.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was thinking along the lines of some 2.4G wireless, that way they could be used (legally) just about anywhere.

Tom

 

[OmahaAudio]

Why not present your needs to two or three of our nicest pro audio dealers and ask them each to put together a kit that would fit the company's needs, along with prices?

[pkautzsch]

On 23.1.2016 at 2:08 PM, TomBoisseau said:

I was thinking along the lines of some 2.4G wireless, that way they could be used (legally) just about anywhere.

Tom

Legally yes, but practically I doubt that a 2.4 GHz system would work everywhere. Too much Wifi stuff going on in most urban areas, and especially in typical locations for corporate video shoots (hotels, office buildings, ...).

[ninjafreddan]

On 2016-01-22 at 11:07 PM, Dan Smith said:

The comment I made on consistency was mostly geared toward the ability to use the same mics etc. for in-house studio shoots, as they use for an on-location shoot. Right now sound is an afterthought and they rig up whatever happens to be in a camera bag. They don't have anything beside a few pocket recorders, shotgun mics, and iphone lavs etc. that just float around. They want consistency in that there is a case with the sound equipment they can take out with their cameras. 

That makes sense to me, and I bet there's a person taking care of the camera equipment - making sure it's running properly. The same person can care for the sound equipment too (even if he's a camera guy). ;-)

Nobody wants to return from a gig with bad sound, it will echo onto the camera guy too. If instructed and paid for, he or she will help out to make the sound kit stay complete and working.

I would approach the rental companies or pro dealers and ask for a used ENG kit - for example a Sound Devices 552 in a comfy bag with harness and rain cover. A coiled snake cable to the camera with a one-hand detach connection is IMHO essential - it will make working in the field easier. I think you should go for a stereo send to the camera, it will get you a long way, and it's nice to be able to split up an interview on two channels. You never know what happens, suddenly you get cloths rustling from one of the mics, coughing, scratching etcetera.

A Sennheiser MKH50 mic will get you through any gig, both indoors and outdoors as long as you protect it with a good wind screen and windjammer. I would buy a new boom with internal cabling - KTEK with side-exiting XLR and a coiled cable to the mixer, will be a great parter in the field. I would also buy two new NP1 batteries and a charger. The battery cup and power distribution system can be used as long as they are in good condition.

As for the wireless, Sennheiser G3 with MKE2 Gold lav mics will produce a sound that's good enough. You can of course always improve the sound quality by buying more expensive wireless systems. A pro dealer will help you out choosing the right wireless system depending on your needs. Hirose power cables for the receivers can be made by the pro dealer.

The digital systems available, like the Sennheiser AVX will automatically scan frequencies and make sure the transmission is as trouble-free as possible. But they will also introduce latency and can't be mixed with the boom - so it's probably better to go for analogue wireless systems.

An all analogue ENG kit will be easier for a novel soundie or camera assistant to use.

As for multi-channel recordings with timecode, if they seldom happen, I would rent a kit and soundie on those occasions. Because you'll probably need more wireless systems, time-code cables that compatible with the camera etcetera.

 

Good luck

Fred