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chrisyking

Rycote Kit 1 and 8060 observation UPDATE

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Turning the mic in the mount a little will put a slight twist into the header cable and effectively reduce how far the loop reaches back so it doesn't touch basket. This is 1 of the reasons I prefer a very light header cable with a low-profile right-angle XLR plugged into the mic - still have to be careful how the cable loops but it seems to be easier as well as allow more room at the business end of the mic. An LP RA, XLR is used by Cinela (and DPA's now defunct WINDPAC) in their suspensions and baskets - Rycote seems to prefer a full 180 degree loop instead of the 90 you get with a RA XLR, which I think is a shame because they would be prime candidates to bring an affordable LP RA XLR to market imho.

dr

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On 26 January 2016 at 9:15 AM, chrisyking said:

So I received my Rycote kit 1 MZL basket for my new 8060 and just thought I'd make an observation.

I know this has been mentioned before but just wanted an opinion.

So, with the basket removed, there is almost no handling noise.

With the basket on, there is an awful amount of low frequency handling noise.

If you flick the basket, and watch carefully you can see it ringing like a bell. This is clearly amplifying the handling noise.

All this indicates that the lyres work well, but the basket is the problem.......

I imagine this goes away once you add the fur, but I just wondered if anyone had a trick for dampening the basket a little?

What I'm going to try tomorrow is to buy one of those stick on car deadening panels and cut a thin strip off it, then stick it inside in a kind of spiral running inside the basket.

I'll let you know how it goes obvs.... maybe this could be something which Rycote could 'build in' in future versions.... 

PS. I know you can remove the handling noise with LF cuts, and that if I were any good as a sound recordist, I wouldn't have handling noise etc. blah blah.... etc etc...

UPDATE: I tried the fur makes almost no difference, so damping the basket won't work it seems...

Chris, If your system is fitted with a con-box you need to buy a catapult, go to a deep lake and fire it in. What you need is 500mm of cotton covered Litz microphone cable to go between the mic and the Rycote Xlr clip.

Malcolm Davies.

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1 minute ago, Malcolm Davies Amps CAS said:

Chris, If your system is fitted with a con-box you need to buy a catapult, go to a deep lake and fire it in. What you need is 500mm of cotton covered Litz microphone cable to go between the mic and the Rycote Xlr clip.

Malcolm Davies.

Future anthropologists will have fun developing theories of about our societies based on discovering a lake somewhere in north western europe with some strange plastic artefacts embedded in the sediment.

 

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Daniel, there are two models of con box: one causes handling noise from the word go and the second model is the one which will starts after a short time. I have never liked them since their inception  and whilst it's a purely personal thing I think it's well named!

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Have to say I bought the version with the con box and the cables they use suck big time. Very stiff. I usually use cotton 'post office' cable, presumable the same as your 'Litz' cable. Much better. 

Do you have a photo of your setup? I would much prefer to have an XLR system anyway just in case I need to pop the mic out for any reason, say if the MZL fails. 

Can you confirm an xld will fit? looks like it would be tight in my Rycote RM1

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Daniel, there are two models of con box: one causes handling noise from the word go and the second model is the one which will starts after a short time. I have never liked them since their inception  and whilst it's a purely personal thing I think it's well named!

I have not experienced something even vaguely similar. I don't like the newer one I have as that has the cable firmly attached. With older ones I could swap out the cables (the one's giung to the mic). I find them particularly useful for MS of DMS setups, as they gently merge the two mics into one cable. Of course, this can be achieved with splitter cables, too.

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Actually looking at it, I will definitely be returning the MZL kit, as the length of the cable they put in basically negates the point of the thing. It will be shorter with a low profile XLR as Malcomb says. Also the cable they use is pointless. Very stiff. Malcomb, on my other basket I made a short cable from cotton covered 'post office' cable, which I assume is what you mean. It's very vibration isolating. I think you are bang on about that, though I'm not sure the lake will give me a refund so it'll go back to Richmond....

Re the basket, I have tried putting some little foam wedges in. This improved things a bit, but it's still not perfect. work in progress.

As the thing is near silent with the basket off handling noise wise, I know it's not the mic or the lyres. It's the basket arrangement.

Now for the mic.....:

I tested it against my 60 and this thing really sounds tinny. There is a real upper mid to HF honk on it which I'm not sure I like at all. Seems a bit toppy....well a lot toppy..... Maybe I could take a bit of this out by using the foam...

My main concern with this mic is it's use in a noisy environment, street markets etc. On first test it seems that the 60 is more directional to me, although I noticed that the 60 gets more bassy off axis, whereas the 8060 doesn't and is more level..

On first impressions I have to say I'm not very keen...not warm and lovely like my 60 at all.... On Monday I'll give the this more of a test outside and see if it holds up.

Chris

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1 hour ago, Malcolm Davies Amps CAS said:

Daniel, there are two models of con box: one causes handling noise from the word go and the second model is the one which will starts after a short time. I have never liked them since their inception  and whilst it's a purely personal thing I think it's well named!

Yeah, i was not conn-vinced either :-), for a number of reasons, so never bought 1. 

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14 minutes ago, chrisyking said:

Actually looking at it, I will definitely be returning the MZL kit, as the length of the cable they put in basically negates the point of the thing. It will be shorter with a low profile XLR as Malcomb says. Also the cable they use is pointless. Very stiff.

Re the basket, I have tried putting some little foam wedges in. This improved things a bit, but it's still not perfect. work in progress.

As the thing is near silent with the basket off handling noise wise, I know it's not the mic. It's the basket arrangement.

Now for the mic.....:

I tested it against my 60 and this thing really sounds tinny. There is a real upper mid to HF honk on it which I'm not sure I like at all. Seems a bit toppy....well a lot toppy..... Maybe I could take a bit of this out by using the foam...

My main concern with this mic is it's use in a noisy environment, street markets etc. On first test it seems that the 60 is more directional to me, although I noticed that the 60 gets more bassy off axis, whereas the 8060 doesn't and is more level..

On first impressions I have to say I'm not very keen...not warm and lovely like my 60 at all.... On Monday I'll give the this more of a test outside and see if it holds up.

Chris

A noisy environment is a noisy environment - there are no magic bullets but a few more thoughts:

The "honk" you describe is probably there to help the 8060 a 'grab' a bit more (like a 416) especially when in a basket and windjammer - I can imagine this is actually an advantage on a red carpet. The HPF on the 60 is optional and certainly useful to have. Personally felt a bit dubious about the lack of a meaningful Low Cut option on the 8000 series for documentary/factual/ENG work, hence the recommendation for a TAC!T cable. As much I miss the 60 which I sold to buy a CS3e, for the work I do, I know it was the right decision. Although the Sanken has more self noise I don't find it meaningful, but the advantages of the mic are. Eg. best in class isolation/directionality, not as unforgiving on interiors and no bass tip (so if the frame or the director allows you can get it right in there).

 

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Chrisy, this is indeed a very nice comparison of how these mics sound - on a stand, in a domestic interior, at a fixed distance etc. I guess an obviously challenging BG reference like pink/white/grey/brown noise, drum machine or tone at various angles to the mics axes(?) might help determine which mic to go for when we are confronted with some of the more ugly audio environments with which we often have to contend. The testing possibilities are endless though.

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Hi Chris,

I assume you already checked this, but nonetheless, does the 8060 fits tight enough in your Rycote lyres?

I have a similar setup (8060/WS2), but I had to put some tape on my mic and my lyres to avoid any movement. 

Best with solving your quest!

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On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2016 at 4:01 AM, chrisyking said:

I just find it odd that without the basket there is almost no handling noise, but with the basket on I would go as far as to describe it as terrible....

Why is the basket adding handling noise? If you hold the basket it helps, but not totally. Maybe adding the basket stiffens the rubber 'seal' that the lyre system sits on.....

 

Post a sample of the noise

 

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O.K. so I did an audio test to show what I was on about as far as the Rycote kit 1 having a resonance. Sorry I couldn't do video, I'm not near a camera.  With the basket on there is a definite low ringing sound which amplifies the handling noise. Have to say the 8060 sounded quite sibilant when I recorded it, but playing it back it sounds really quite nice. Not very warm, but I can see why directors might like it. There is a definite cut to it. Anyway see what you think. Listen on decent headphones obvs. Go to 1.11 which shows the worst ringing. This isn't the end of the world, but I reckon I can make it better if I make modifications.

Cover test.mp3

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Chrisy, handling noise is handling noise, does it really matter if the characteristics are slightly different if the basket is on or off? Maybe another test where you're not tapping the pole? dr.

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10 minutes ago, daniel said:

Chrisy, handling noise is handling noise, does it really matter if the characteristics are slightly different if the basket is on or off? Maybe another test where you're not tapping the pole? dr.

Hows that test gonna work? How are you going to do a sample of handling noise? Tapping the pole seems the most sensible solution.

 

Anyway I reckon with a little bit of deadening, it could really be improved.

 

 

 

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If only happens when you tap the pole...

don't tap the pole. I'm not trying to be flip, I'm just saying, if the phenomena shows itself even when you're not tapping the pole, record and post and someone, I'm sure, will try to help. Perhaps cue the mic back and forth in a simulation of a real world scenario (with and without basket), is it there, is it damaging your recording? atb. 

 

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Hi Daniel, sorry I explained all this earlier in the post. I'm not saying the thing is unusable and 99 percent of the time I won't be 'whacking my pole', but every so often I need to do media scrums or stuff running around where other people are 'whacking my pole' all over the shop. Hence I want the lowest handling noise possible.. I'm not saying the kit 1 isn't useable, clearly there re lots of people using it, I'm just saying that I reckon it can be improved. I really like this basket for its size and Rycote is the daddy, but I can see ways to improve it.

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OK so something which makes a massive difference, is to move the two white washers on each knob to the gap between the rubber isolator and the lyre mount. Seems to cut down the vibration transfer. Basket still ringing a bit though...

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On 1/29/2016 at 9:47 PM, chrisyking said:

Hi Daniel, sorry I explained all this earlier in the post. I'm not saying the thing is unusable and 99 percent of the time I won't be 'whacking my pole', but every so often I need to do media scrums or stuff running around where other people are 'whacking my pole' all over the shop. Hence I want the lowest handling noise possible.. I'm not saying the kit 1 isn't useable, clearly there re lots of people using it, I'm just saying that I reckon it can be improved. I really like this basket for its size and Rycote is the daddy, but I can see ways to improve it.

Hi Chrisy, no need to apologise, I did read the earlier posts. And I know what a media scrum can be like, probably you're client does too. Are they expecting feature film grade boom (perfectly cued, full frequency from a sound stage)? Is the audio going to a re-mixer to tweak the EQs before broadcast? 

In the context you present (the "media scrum"), if you use a mic that is sensitive to handling noise you're going to have to roll it off somewhere, ideally as as near to the front as you can (and assume no tweaking by editor later). Something like a TAC!T cable seems like a cheap and effective way to go. A better suspension like a Cinela suspension and wind basket may make a difference, but even if you owned 1, do you really want to swing 1 around in a media scrum? And that's assuming it performs any better when it or the pole gets bashed. And if it doesn't, then what?

You've clearly got great ears and I hope you're client is booking you to do other things as well. Also Rycote do a workshop/get together thing and are always open for feedback so let them know etc. I know you've not said you need a better suspension because you don't want to use an HPF on your red carpet gig but that seems to be implied (sorry if I got his wrong :-). Other than that what else can you do? I don't imagine you're using a 8060 without a carbon pole or leaving knuckles and joints loose, so nothing to change there. I use a softy suspension and windgag for this sort of thing (unless it's raining or very windy) as it needs less babysitting, it's slightly smaller (so less likely to get knocked and less noisy when it is knocked) but the Sanken has an HPF and I don't mind using the HPF on the mixer/recorder if I need to for this sort of thing - I think the client is happy it's intelligible and wont wonder why the bass has gone for a cup of tea while I'm in the fray to grab speech in an a challenging news environment. Remember how this audio is going to be used. Something like 'VT' inserts into studio recorded program? 'Tinny' red carpet stuff sits with full tone presenter speech, trailers (with the bass turned up :-), junkets, phoned in reports etc - it will be part of an overall texture. Atb.

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Here's a very very quick and not very good test of background noise rejection which I nailed out really quickly at lunchtime. Unfortunately I din't have the fur for the 8060 so there is a bit of wind noise as it was b£%ard windy out there, but you get the idea. From this quick and not very good test it seems that the two mics are very very similar and could almost cut together. The 8060 is slightly toppier, but then I don't have the fur on. I tried to keep the tips of the mics at the same distance from my mush. There's no bass cut on either, so the wind noise gets bad in places. If I get time I'll do another one with no wind. Notice I ditched the MZL kit and made myself up a nice silk covered red cable.

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