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Expert Advice Wanted. Sound for Film.


Eric F Adams

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Eric F,

A consistent dialogue track may be hampered by the gain structure of your set up: from microphone through the MM1 to the H4N.

Though the H4N has balanced line-level XLR inputs, it is NOT rated for a +4dBu PRO LINE-LEVEL input (MM1 Clipping output at +22 dBu into 100k ohms, +20 dBu into 600 ohms)

The MM1 can crank out some serious levels that the H4N will not be able to handle. So you have a problem:

Play it safe on the MM1 (less mic gain resulting in poor signal-to-noise, and avoid overloading the H4N's input/digital track.

Or Proper mic gain (re: signal-to-noise) and risk a blown out track.

Unfortunately the MM1 does not have the option of: mic/line -10/line +4 output: impedance matching (to recorder) option.

One solution (apart from a better mic, placement, location, acting/directing, professional sound recordist, etc) might be to get an in-line Pad/ attenuator so your "Pro" MM1 plays nice with your "not-so-pro" H4N; or go direct to the H4N and by-pass the MM1, but who are we kidding? H4N Pre-amps are, well, definitely nowhere close to the quality of the MM1.

Also, is your sound gal monitoring from the MM1 or the H4N?

Because it should be the H4N, I say, unfortunately. 

My 2 cents on this one time dime, best of luck and keep having fun.

T

Theoretically speaking.

 

ZOOM H4N input specs:

XLR (balanced input) / standard phone (unbalanced input) combo jack
Input impedance

(using balanced input) 1 kΩ balanced, pin 2 hot

(using unbalanced input) 480 kΩ unbalanced Input level
(using balanced input) −10 dBm _ −42 dBm

(using unbalanced input) +2 dBm _ −32 dBm 

 

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Hi Eric, interesting topic for a lot of people that might be researching this discussion group.

A few things and then I will add my 2 cents worth about sound acquisition.

 

Firstly – the info from T-Will regarding the gain structure of your set up: from microphone through the MM1 to the H4N, is in my opinion a critical component of your sound acquisition outcome.

Secondly – BUY Jay Roses book and read it all, blind Freddy could tell you that.

Thirdly – Maybe convince your wife to do a sound training course at a film/video school.

Fourthly – If you buy a Sennheiser 416 microphone, beware, they have a very narrow pickup pattern.

It could take your wife a very long time to learn how to use it successfully.

 

Sound acquisition, like picture acquisition, is like an iceberg, only about 20% is obviously visible.

However the sound iceberg is probably 10 times the size of the picture iceberg.

If you point a camera at someone, select your frame size, then everything outside that frame ceases to exist. If you point your microphone at that frame size, it doesn’t mean a thing.

The microphone hears everything – in and outside that frame.

 

The issue with microphones is they hear, but they can’t listen.

 

If you are talking with someone in a noisy environment, your brain steps in to help out.

It does this by having the ability to focus/concentrate on isolating words from the background noise.

There’s even a bit of visual help here from the eyes watching the speaker’s lips forming words, helping the brain confirm what the ears are hearing. Microphones don’t have brains.

 

In radio, one takes time selecting a microphone designed to capture the outstanding qualities and depth of feeling being delivered by the human voice. Attaching it to a sophisticated articulated arm and placeing it right in front of a speaker’s mouth – where it sounds absolutely fabulous.

 

In the visual medium, nobody wants to see the microphone. It takes SKILL to select the right one and manoeuvre it around the cameras visual interpretation process of varying shot sizes, lights and movement. Unlike the radio announcer situation, you are faced with many compromises in quality along the way.

 

So in my opinion you have to do the brainwork for the microphone, by placing it in a position where

your sound acquisition outcome is what your (or anyone else’s) ear expects to hear. You do this by getting the microphone as close to its acquisition source (mouth) as you can. So you can artificially increase the ratio of the person speaking to the background noise. We call this, signal to noise ratio. The aim is to keep that consistant.

However, then there is perspective. But that's another story...

 

So as someone has already suggested – and with the basic sound equipment (& skill set) you have – Give your sound interpretation PRIORITY and shoot around it.

 

I apologize if I have replied to this at a very basic level, however this is the elemental, elephant in the room.

Best,

Rob Stalder.

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16 hours ago, Eric F Adams said:

 I did hire (and paid dearly) for a couple of post sound guys to come in and fine tune the sound.  They are pros and work at Celtic Studios in Baton Rouge.  Dang, that was expensive. lol.

Was that cost effective? Or would it have been cheaper to hire someone who could have minimised this expense, and give you a few professional pointers along the way. 

Good luck with your projects by the way, they look like fun to make!

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On March 3, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Eric F Adams said:

Glen - I believe that (AT875) is my weak link too.  What would you recommend?

All things considered, I suggest getting either a used Sennheiser 416-P48 or a new Rode NTG-3. The performance of both mics is identical. My preference would be a used 416 if you have someone with experience listen to it (they could tell instantly if it was right or not). The 416 may be more robust, but a new Rode can be had new less expensively than a new 416.

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On March 3, 2016 at 0:45 PM, Eric F Adams said:

oh, also...here is the extended trailer so you can get a good idea of my sound in the film.  This was done with my 3 pieces of equipment mentioned above in the initial post.  Don't be too harsh on me now.  I'm learning.  I did all foley and special fx sounds.  

 

I like it! The biggest improvement for dialog will come primarily from mic placement and secondarily from recorder settings.

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26 minutes ago, Eric F Adams said:

Glenn....----  Rob insinuated that the 416 my be a little advance for us.  Long learning curve.  This makes me a little worried.  

Also T_Will gave me some great info on my gain settings.  But he has not come back and I would love it if someone could walk me through..."hand feed" my optimum settings for MM1 to the H4N.   He also mention that the H4N is holding me back. (in so many words).  What would be the next step up?

well, the narrower the pickup pattern the better rejection of unwanted sounds (outdoors), but the trickier to handle - no free lunch here. ideally you'd want a separate mic for indoors and outdoors anyway.

you never mentioned your budget, nor if you have all the necessary little extras (boom, shock mount, zeppelin etc)? hard to give meaningful advice without that.

anyway, for a minimum amateur kit i'd go:

- Rode NT5 (200)
- Rode NTG-3 or used 416 (600)
- Zoom H5 (250)
- Rycote Inv HG mkIII  (80)
- Rycote Baby Ball (60)
- Zeppelin (400)
- Boom (400)
 

so close to 2000USD. you could probably lower this 30% if you have time to wait for good used deals.
you could also get a tascam 680 if you don't mind the larger form factor and make your own battery solution.

but the main thing is that you learn how to use the gear, so a others have suggested, do a lot of reading and real world trial and error. if you dig into this for a few months, that will make more difference then between upgrading to a zoom h5 from your h4n.

just some thoughts
chris

 

 

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On 3/5/2016 at 8:57 PM, chrismedr said:

you never mentioned your budget, nor if you have all the necessary little extras (boom, shock mount, zeppelin etc)? hard to give meaningful advice without that.

Thanks Chris.  Good stuff.  My budget would be a few/several hundred dollars over a period of a couple months.  I can cover the items that have been mentioned.  

 

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12 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

well what's your boom, shock mount and wind protection so far?

I have a really nice Rode boom.  A cheap plastic AT mount but it works fine.  Wind protection....I put on a Rode "dead cat" that I just left on throughout the whole film. A fella mentioned earlier about some sound blankets and stuff.  I'm going to look into that too.  

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yeah, a 416 and a zoom H5 are probably good starters. i would also add a NT5 for tight interiors where you can get close and two people are talking at the same time, much easier then a 416 there. makes also for a nice plant mic. 

chris

ps: you probably shouldn't mention "rode boom" and "really nice" in the same sentence here in this forum ;)

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28 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

yeah, a 416 and a zoom H5 are probably good starters. i would also add a NT5 for tight interiors where you can get close and two people are talking at the same time, much easier then a 416 there. makes also for a nice plant mic. 

chris

ps: you probably shouldn't mention "rode boom" and "really nice" in the same sentence here in this forum ;)

I believe i need to just stick with one mic. we are not advanced enough to be switching equipment out on set.    

About the boom...lol.  Okay.  I feel I have a quality boom.  No problems with it.  Works great. 

  

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4 hours ago, Eric F Adams said:

Thanks Glenn.  So the 416 would work well with the MM1 and H4N?

Glenn....----  Rob insinuated that the 416 my be a little advance for us.  Long learning curve.  This makes me a little worried.  

Nothing to be afraid of at all; certainly not a long learning curve. It is a little tighter than the AT875, and from what I was hearing, it would probably help. What you should be worried about is using the AT875 again :)

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On 3/2/2016 at 0:11 PM, Eric F Adams said:

I will try and make this brief so I will not bore you.  I shot a feature film a year or two ago and it went well, but I need to improve my sound.  I self funded the film.  No paid crew or no paid actors.  I shot it on Super 16mm.  Despite the limitations, the film went great and I plan to do another one.  

Wow, I'm amazed you shot a feature film on S16 film! :-o What are you planning on shooting your next one on?

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12 minutes ago, Abe Dolinger said:

Mic choice is extremely subjective, but I like the MKH50 as a mic that thrives in a lot of situations. 

Do you need 8 channels of recording? If not, there are some great 2-channel recorders in your price range. 

Thanks Abe.  I just watched some reviews and test on the MKH50.  Impressive.  It sounds great and may be best bet for my guerrilla style shooting.  No, I do not need 8 channels but someone strongly recommended due to the preamp (all in one) package. 

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the MKH50 is one of the nicest and most useful mics, if you can adjust your budget for that it's a great choice. you'd still want a 416 or similar for outdoor scenes though. The F8 is also a great entry item, again you'd need to adjust your budget.

so the H5 + NT5 is a good option if you only have 450USD and it's this or no sound, the F8 and MKH50 is great if you have 2500USD. but then you need other things as well (shotgun, lavs etc)

the problem with the question you asked is that basically it comes down to: "i want good sound but don't have the skills nor the gear, how can i buy cheap gear to improve the results?"

the answer you'll get (and gotten) is "you need better skills, and and some point expensive gear".

you can keep asking variations of your original question but all you'll get is different variations of the answer : )

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4 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

comes down to: "i want good sound but don't have the skills nor the gear, how can i buy cheap gear to improve the results?"

the answer you'll get (and gotten) is "you need better skills, and and some point expensive gear".

you can keep asking variations of your original question but all you'll get is different variations of the answer : )

I am learning from these questions and I am improving; skills, technique, knowledge...AND gear.  I need a mic for both in and outdoors.  I keep reading where the 50 is great for indoor, but not so much outdoor.  And the 416 is just the opposite.  Is the MKH 8060 good for both indoor and outdoor

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2 hours ago, Eric F Adams said:

I am learning from these questions and I am improving; skills, technique, knowledge...AND gear.  

you can learn some knowledge from reading, but only very limited skills and technique - an experienced sound person will get *much* better results with an MKH50 (or an NT5 for that matter) outdoors then a beginner will with an 416 (and the same indoors with the opposite combination).

nothing wrong with asking questions, but the question "will the MKH8060 better" is probably the wrong one at your skill level (and just to put this into context, my skills are at the very bottom compared to the vast majority of the people in this forum too).

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5 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

nothing wrong with asking questions, but the question "will the MKH8060 better" is probably the wrong one at your skill level (and just to put this into context, my skills are at the very bottom compared to the vast majority of the people in this forum too).

i understand.  thank-you. 

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"will the MKH8060 be better"

Maybe, but it's still of the 'interference tube' design like the 416 (and most other shotguns). However, the Sanken CS-3e uses multiple elements for cancellation and does not exhibit the problem characteristics in a reflective environment, so it 'may' be a better choice for a one-mic-fits-all operation. Of coarse, it's still not a substitute for skills.

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