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Using (3) 788Ts as 24 track!


Aaron Murphy

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I'm using 3 788ts in parallel for a Bravo show in January. I've managed to get them to go into record simultaneously with frame accuracy thanks to tech help from Joe Ramos at Sound Devices. I've got two concerns that I would like some help with from the members of this group.

1) MANAGING AUDIO DATA

My plan is to rotate 32Gb CF cards into a FW800 card-reader throughout the day to keep my file transfers short. According to SD, I cannot transfer to 3 media simultaneously when I record more than 8 tracks (it can record 8 iso's and 4 mix tracks). I've decided that the int. HD and CF are my best choice for reliability. I will have 3 harddrives to get data from at the end of the day. Any suggestions on utilities that allow me to keep 4 drives (3 HD and 1 CF card) mounted and allow for automated data mirroring/transfer?

2) HEADPHONE MONITORING

I need to hear each device as I solo individual mics but while still using one pair of headphones.

I'm resigned to building a custom switcher box that that allows me to hear each recorder solo'd OR mixed together. Instead of a rotary knob I'm going to use a small Rolls headphone mixer (the MX41b) with 3 small switches that control which device makes it to the mixer. Each switch has 3 positions: on - off - (on). ( (on) = momentary position )

I've looked at some home stereo component selector boxes as well as the Mackie "Big Knob" which needs 110V and also seems a little over kill for a cart application..

Thoughts on solutions would be greatly appreciated.

I welcome any comments or questions.

Aaron Murphy

P.S. Photo below shows the little Behringer mixers I'm using to combine all 3 stereo mixes into a single stereo mix for the control room/video village. It's not a very sexy rig but it's a work in progress.  While it lacks in on-set glamour, it makes up for it as an ENG rental mixer/recorder combo.  Hurray for reality TV!

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Hi Aaron,

and hats off to you for persevering through what must seem like a fairly major voyage of discovery. I looked at doing a similar rig about 4 months ago, when I had to sort out a 20+ track recording for a reality show based around 17 people travelling around Europe on the back of a coach. In the end I decided that the data handling, amongst other things, was going to be the killer, in as much as I could see a pretty much full time job in copying and compiling the files in such a way as to make them make sense. Might I suggest that you steer down the 16bit file width route, as this will significantly reduce the amount of data to copy.

I expect you are wondering what we used on the bus in the end. . . I did it with a Yamaha LS9-32 desk, connected by MADI to a SADiE LRX2 recorder (which works fine on 12v, though we in fact had mains on the bus (The Yamaha is mains only to my knowledge). One of the advantages of this (for our shoot) was that the SADiE records to a day folder on 2 x ext  HDDs simultaneously. This meant no file copying at all - just deliver one drive weekly, and keep the other as a backup. It worked pretty well in the end, though there were a few minor hiccups, mostly to do with an operator who knew macs well, but was pretty green on PCs. SADiE software of course only works in a windows environment!!

Kindest regards, and good luck,

Simon B

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Aaron,

Few thoughts on the data side

1. Are you using a Mac or PC to burn DVD's to hand of at the end of the day?

2. What's your name structure? Will each machines Scene have something to ID which machine it originated from? Like A-S21-T01.wav, B-S21-T01.wav etc. Otherwise, computers might not like files with the same name.

3. Are you going to generate Sound Reports?

I just finished a SciFi movie that it took my lunch break to do sound reports and burn a DVD of the work till that point in the day. The process of transferring to computer and burning to disk took between 30-40 minutes including sound report duties. My Macbook Pro takes about 10 minutes to complete a burn to DVD.  If you are using a Laptop, you could rotate CF cards and copy them in the background between takes then rotate back into 788t at larger breaks. Otherwise you will have to Connect each 788t to you computer, download, eject and repeat with the other machines. Maybe you can ask SD if you rename each machines HD/CF, if you then use a USB hub to connect all machines at once to copy data, shouldn't be a problem. I only have 1 unit so I can't test. For backups,I use an open source UNIX utility called RSYNC to backup data between systems/drives or you can use OSX built-in AUTOMATOR with applescript to do the job.

Mark L

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Quite an interesting setup and it is quite an accomplishment to get it all working. THe 2 key issues, as you have pointed out, are monitoring during production and data management (for the deliverable to post). I personally would never have attempted going this route unless I already owned the 3 788Ts or was compelled by someone or some company, as a challenge, to make it all work. Beyond 16 tracks (one Deva 16 could do it all in one box, monitoring and data management not even an issue) I would seriously consider a laptop based system (Metacorder, BoomRecorder, etc.) with an appropriate interface. A somewhat hybrid approach would be the use of the SaDie system which is ideal except for, as pointed out here, the lack of much experience with that system here in the U.S.. Another option would have been a full size mixer (since this appears to be on a cart) like any of the analog mixers from Mackie or digital mixers from Yamaha, feeding standalone multitrack recorder like the Tascam 48 tracker.

-  Jeff Wexler

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I have need  from time to time to multitrack multiple speakers and have found the Alesis HD24 recorder to be a great choice.  I have one recorder along with a MOTU Digital Timepiece which accepts WC and TC and locks the Alesis to both.  Use a TC slate or clapsticks for sync.  What is nice is the Alesis records in its own format (FST) and you can then transfer the audio files into whatever format you need, SD, Wav, etc.  The down side is it only records to one drive, so there is no backup, however throughout the day I typically mirror to the second drive.  The recorders are cheap enough you could roll two at a time for your backup.  Mixer wise, a Yamaha 01V96 gives you 16 inputs with 16 ADAT outs or a Yamaha DM1000 will give you 24 in and 24 ADAT outs.  The cost for two Alesis recorders and 01V96 is a lot less than one SD 788T!  On the other hand it is a bigger package.  Managing the data is simple one track per person per day.

Regards,

David

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This is very inventive--I'd love to hear why you went this way instead of a computer-based or other rig where you could record 24 ch in one device with a single monitor mixer and audio file folder.  Did you need all-the-time DC operation?  A moni mixer/switcher will work for you, but you'll still have a time remembering which track from which machine you are listening to.  But doesn't the 788 have just 6 outputs?  Will you just mix the moni outs of each 788 and do the soloing on each machine?

The "Big Knob" didn't turn out to be very reliable for us, even in the studio.  The Rolls stuff has worked well for me for monitoring, and much of it runs on 12VDC directly, but I several times I've had issues with RF getting into the device when near broadcasting towers, and they don't have much headroom.  If you get a lot of tracks going into it at once it may distort your headphones when the individual tracks are ok.  Some of their devices invert phase on the output--make sure to test.

Philip Perkins

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I would not cite the fact that SADiE LRX has a lack of US experience as a valid reason NOT to look at the SADiE route. The LRX is well and truely proven here in the UK now, and lots of other places elsewhere also. I totally understand that many folks are more Mac friendly than PC friendly, and that that fact alone might well present a little 'resistance'. That said, it is a solid and reliable system (it actually bypasses quite a lot of Windows 'stuff', in order to make it more solid) - if you see a waveform being drawn, then it got recorded!! Two external (i.e. deliverable) drives simultaneously, and you dont have to feed it at line level from a mixer - you can plug 48 x mic IPs into it directly should you wish to.

Kindest regards,

Simon B

A somewhat hybrid approach would be the use of the SaDie system which is ideal except for, as pointed out here, the lack of much experience with that system here in the U.S..

-  Jeff Wexler

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Thank you so much everyone for your input!!

My considerations for this system were this.

1) Ease of use

I wanted it to be a system that I can train other Sound Mixers to use.  Most experienced Mixers I know have some positive experience with SD, so it's a natural extension of existing knowledge.  It's simple list based interface, I feel, is easier to learn and the CL-8 controller is a no-brainer if you run-n-gun (comparing it to the Deva Fusion or 16).

2) Size

I did not want to use an large analog board or even the DMx000 Yamahas (steep learning curve for ENG Operators) because they are not quite portable enough for my taste especially once you put them in a shipping case.  Multiple units makes it scalable and very portable.  Also wanted to make this system assemble quickly with few people and allow for multiple location moves each day.  The Deva's and Cantar are still a little too large for my preference.  I feel the SD 788 w CL8 package is a turning point for ENG work.

3) Modular

I can rent the 'multi-track' out as 3 discreet units which offers more opportunities for rental on the reality/adventure style programming that I'm frequency working on. Not an option with a BoomCorder or Metacorder with the requisite rack AD/DA setup.

4)HD based, no tape

ADAT is out. Post wouldn't have it anyway.

Thanks for the feedback all.  The Sadie LRX could have been something I would have considered but for ease of use and that fact that it can't be re-purposed as an ENG mixer, I still am happy with my SD move.

Mark, I'm going to explore your suggestion. 

"For backups, I use an open source UNIX utility called RSYNC to backup data between systems/drives or you can use OSX built-in AUTOMATOR with applescript to do the job."

I will try a Firewire hub and automating some file transfers that way. 

I had intended to deliver a Mac formatted drive to Post but am finding I will need to likely use Courtney's BWF Widget to prepare my files for Post which only comes in a PC version. Post operate both PC and Mac version of Avid Media Composer 3.0.5.  If I keep the drives formatted as FAT 32 I should be able to swap between Mac and PC perhaps?  I've read mixed reports online about OS and swapping hard drives between them. 

I'de prefer to do file transfer in Mac but create my ALE file(so Avid will see all my metadata including the "track ID" values with my cast names) in BWF Widget Pro on a PC. 

I will use SD's Wave Agent to create sound reports as PDFs for each transport drive daily(Mac and PC). 

I plan on keeping file names unique by adding an "A", "B" or "C" before each scene name to distinguish each machine so all files can reside in the same folder on the transport drive.

Again your input is amazing...!

Aaron

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Aaron,

A few questions...

1. Is the show a more "FIXED Location" show or run and gun type? Point being, will there be a "Control Room" where all the video stuff goes into

2. With three machines, when you hit record on 1, are they all chained together to all go into record?

3. Will you be running all tracks set to record at all times? I found with the new firmware you had to visit menus to record enable tracks as opposed to turning a channel on/off to have it go into record. If you are under the gun, you may miss the fact that a track is not record enabled without first checking the display..

4. What do you want happen with BWF widget? Add more meta data? Merge files?

5. I will assume you are recording to Poly wav files, otherwise that a mess of files to deal with.

6. Will there be fixed times of the day the show will be shot? 8 to 5 for example.

One option to maybe consider would be Protools with DVToolkit option. You could then drag each machines files, line up via timecode and then export one big .aaf or .omf file. You might even be able to send them a .mxf file.

What would be really nice is if they had internet access on set you could upload or rsync the files to Post without having to burn a disk. This could be a background task that you really wouldn't have to watch over once you start it..

Mark L

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Mark,

1. We are mostely in a fixed position. Each location will have a 'control room/video village' that will stay put for that location.

2. All 3 machines are slaved through the logic ports. One master unit puts the other 2 into record and stop.

3. I will record all tracks most likely. If I get a break I will disable unused tracks to save storage/trasfer.

4. I was hoping to use BWF as a way to import audio tracks (using ALE feature)  into one 'A1' audio time line in Avid Media Composer. Likely Post will be renaming the files to perform this task.

5. Mono is what post has requested.

6. No fixed times of day for shooting w this system. Why do you ask?

Protools option sounds interesting. An .mxf would likely get around the messy file renaming you think?

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Aaron

1. We are mostely in a fixed position.  Each location will have a 'control room/video village' that will stay put for that location.

Cool, you might suggest setting up a little network with a main computer in that control room. This way all you would have to do is Copy to your drive then shuffle off to productions computers where someone could burn disks for you. This would free your time up greatly. Having to deal with moving 32gig/ 788t, then sorting and burning will be a job itself. That entire process of moving data from 788t to computer then DVD will take you well over an hour.

3. I will record all tracks most likely. If I get a break I will disable unused tracks to save storage/trasfer.

WOW, that's going to be a ton of data. Hopefully post knows about the 2gig limit for OMF files..

4. I was hoping to use BWF as a way to import audio tracks (using ALE feature)  into one 'A1' audio time line in Avid Media Composer.  Likely Post will be renaming the files to perform this task.

5. Mono is what post has requested.

Check out the bottom for what I found with AVID and poly files..

6. No fixed times of day for shooting w this system. Why do you ask?

Just make sure you don't have overlapping timecodes for disks you send them. This could cause them grief syncing audio to video later. The last shoot I was on, our schedule shuffled all over and my requests for extra DVD's to burn went on deaf ears. This caused me to sometimes have to burn 1 dvd with audio that overlapped. Like 12-20-08/ 1300hr and 12-21-08/1300hr..

Protools option sounds interesting.  An .mxf would likely get around the messy file renaming you think?

I played around with Protools and I just found a major downside. It throws away the meta data. GAK!! Timecodes are correct, but other stuff go's. It also makes the AVID project really messy with files.  I've attached a screen shot of my test AVID project with the audio being imported directly from a POLY wav file.  Only 1 file shows up in the bin, notice all the nice META data, track names from the 788t are correctly imported. Then when you drag the file into the sequence, new tracks are created automatically. I think this is the cleanest way to go.. BTW, I tested this with AVID Express Pro 5.8x and suspect Avid Composer works similar.

Mark L

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I realize that you have many good reasons for wanting to do this gig w/ 3 788s, but from what I've read, a laptop based multitrack would give you more tracks and easier audio and data management, esp for this much data.  It is also far easier to name tracks/files/folders/drives etc, and rename them to meet changing situations, and the metadata can be dealt with more easily than with sets of 3 CF cards.

Philip Perkins

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Philip,

It might be a case of "use what you got". On my first movie I used a Digi 003r/Presonus Preamp with Protools, worked great. It's now my backup, though I'm tied to AC when using that setup. 

Mark L

I think that it might be that this is less the norm for the OP's work, and the 788s will work in more situations, both separately and together, where they'd be on rental.

Philip Perkins

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I have to agree this appears to be a data nightmare for post production to keep track of not to mention alot of time for you to burn media. As someone who owns a 702t and 744t I agree everyone is comfortable with sound devices products, But I have used a DEVA as well and think that most experienced mixers should be able to get the hang of it quickly. If I had this job I would use boom recorder though due to price and ease of use.

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i recently had to use two 744t's chained together on a feature, and data management was tough enough with that.  get some custom sound reports made for this job.  also, i understand your desire to disable tracks that aren't being recorded to, but i'd say it might just be easier to go ahead and roll them, even if no audio is going to them...otherwise, whoever edits/mixes it will have to pay close attention to the file names and will have to shift files around (which shouldn't be THAT difficult, right!  but you never know)

-greg-

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  • 3 weeks later...

I worked with Aaron on the show with this rig. The system actually worked very well. It was certainly NOT a nightmare. I'll let Aaron give some further details. =)

You guys may be on to something--please let us know the data-handling went, how you interacted w/ post etc..  The "modular" nature of your setup could be a real plus for jobs where sound people can pool gear.

Philip Perkins

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788 as Multi-track UPDATE:

So It functioned as planned! The modular 24 is very possible!  My rotary 4 position switch worked a charm so soloing was easy.  The fourth position was dedicated to the mono mix I created from a little Behringer desktop mixer I used to feed stereo program from my 3 machines to video village.   I looped the timecode through so code and sample rates stayed locked throughout. 

Feedback:

*Combining the files into a single folder each nite only seemed slightly confusing or troublesome after a particular 18 hour day. I made sure to name each scene with a machine designation "A, B and C" preceding.  Files looked like this: Bxxxx_1.wav and Axxx_1.wav so they would not copy over each other in the master folder.

*My rotating 32Gb CF card workflow worked great.  I only had one hiccup when one machine displayed "CF card too slow" and I had to pull that take from the Int HDD later in the day. It rolled on the Internal no problem. I kept rotating the CF and recording 5 hour long files in my test before shooting so I was surprised by this.  I was usually rolling on 10 tracks on each machine. 

*It was a bit combersome to rename tracks after rolling due to the 788 inability to change metadata while in record. Not sure if the Metacorder can do this.  Just meant I had to take great notes. Also rolled on garbage tracks labeled as "unused" because I could'nt arm or un-arm tracks while recording.  Wanted the option to add the cast signal to an input and update the track name after the fact if need be.

*Had the Notes section on one machine freeze on that page while rolling 10 tracks once during a take.  I had to cut in order to clear the "saving notes...." display. 

More later....

Aaron

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