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Apparent audio failure into Sony F55


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I was cabled up to a Sony F55 today, and realized near the end of a long day that despite hearing a consistent and good return monitoring signal, movement in the camera's audio meters had ceased at some point in the last hour. We confirmed via last clip playback that the camera had stopped recording audio, even while continuing to allow for a good return path (to a Sound Devices 322 mixer).

 

How could this be possible, and has anyone else encountered this deadly malfunction? We went through trouble shooting, even as other crews were breaking down, and used another available camera to verify that everything in my audio package was normal.

 

I have had little prior experience connected to the F55, but this was the last of a number of observations during the day that did not make me a fan of this machine. I feel sorry for the DP, who has a perplexing problem to solve.

 

Note to self - negotiate to see the meters even when everyone is busy, tired, distracted, etc. Up until today, I could not have imagined that a cabled monitoring return could allow for a false indication that a signal was being recorded. Another lesson on the board, and an anxiety producing one at that. Looking forward to hearing if others have experienced this issue.

 

Grant.

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Being able to see the camera's meters is a great idea, but not always possible even with cameras that have meters visible in other then the VF anymore (and shooters often turn those off).  You listened to your return, you did your job.  This kind of weird failure is why, many years ago, I made recording a backup SOP, even when it was just to a non-TC recorder, in order to have something to pass on.  Sometimes it was a camera failure, sometimes in the heat of things the hook-up wasn't made, sometimes the settings on the camera were wrong or had been whacked.  A backup recording of some kind allows you to save the job, basically.

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Thanks Philip. I appreciate this. I have not done a lot of production work in large teams for the last few years, and now I have had the chance to see that record-and-send-wireless-hop is the new standard. My task now will be to determine whether a conventional mixer and umbillical link has any place going forwards. It may be possible to add an outboard recorder to the compact 322 mixer that supports time code, but it may be better to just move to an integrated platform such as the Zoom F8.

 

Time to dig in and learn what is out there...

 

Grant.

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12 hours ago, Grant said:

Thanks Philip. I appreciate this. I have not done a lot of production work in large teams for the last few years, and now I have had the chance to see that record-and-send-wireless-hop is the new standard. My task now will be to determine whether a conventional mixer and umbillical link has any place going forwards. It may be possible to add an outboard recorder to the compact 322 mixer that supports time code, but it may be better to just move to an integrated platform such as the Zoom F8.

 

Time to dig in and learn what is out there...

 

Grant.

I'm in a similar position with kit (SD and SQN mixers, tascam dr680 recorder, 4 RM channels). I'm just waiting to see what comes up at NAB but will probably get the 633 and not F8 or R4+ because:

~ I want the option of sending a standard 2 channel mix to camera via a conventional 'umbilical' cable (with return) when possible and a solid TC arrangement when it isn't. 

~ I want pots big enough to mix on.

~ Don't want to carry a bag with separate mixer and recorder (unless the recorder is very small).

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I've worked a fair bit with the Sony F55 and never seen this problem, but it is important to realize that audio outputs on cameras are not "reading off the heads", so problems can definitely arise where there is no audio recorded and the return is working fine.  Last got bitten by this years ago shooting on a Sony F900R that had a head issue- video was recorded (with some minor dropouts) but the audio track did not get recorded.  Fortunately, I had a recorder for that shoot- it had only been spec'd as a transcription recorder, but I was using a 722t so we didn't lose anything.  

 

The bigger issue with the F55 is the camera operator taking it off speed without telling the Sound Op, and not resetting the camera properly to normal speed and timecode settings.  Offspeed shooting will disable audio recording.

 

Cheers,

Brent Calkin

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Thanks everyone... The DP was struggling to set to a very specific shutter speed periodically, to get a quick shot of a cheap digital clock (to show the time running out for 'contestants'). Would swapping out shutter speeds lead to this issue?

The digital clock would not record properly until the camera hit a shutter setting of... I think it was 1/32. I observed that getting the F55 down to that setting and back up again was an onerous task, requiring a couple of minutes per go. There's this bloody lag in the camera's menus - I don't know how many of the menus are subject to this - but setting things like shutter leads to 'overshoot'. (right off, when I hooked up, I noticed that audio metering was suffering a processing lag).

No fun at all. I think we hit the 'clock shot' about 4 or 5 times over 7 hours. Looks like it might have caused us more grief than we first knew. (I may be off base here, as frame rate and shutter speed  should not really have any relationship to each other).

 

Grant.

 

 

 

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I have shot quite a lot with (and also always had good experiences with) both F5 and F55.

However, a heads-up to everyone: I learned something yesterday about the F55... after shooting in the morning, with audio and TC settings set by me in the camera - all good.

Then in the afternoon, we set up to do a sit-down interview. I suddenly noticed that I did not have a return feed. So I walk over to the camera to check.... TC was not moving (Rec Run)... Return level at 0.... my input levels were also not where I had set them. What gives?

Well....

-Turns out they had loaded a different "Profile", and doing so re-sets EVERYTHING.

Of course, I was told - AFTER I had changed all settings back... hah!

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I don't know all the settings of cameras and I'm not going to try and do a shooters (or ACs) job for them.  But I am going to make sure there is some recorded audio at the end of the day no matter what they do or don't do.  It's just not that tough to contrive a backup audio recording anymore.  Like a lot of the other oldsters around here, I come from a background in film sound recording, like with me having an audio recorder on set.  When video ascended and suddenly all audio had to be recorded on the camera or VTR soundtracks I hated not only the leash of the cable but that now the shooter decided when I could record audio.  So even back in the 3/4" and 1" days I added recorder to my rig, even if it was just a good cassette machine.  I wanted to be able to grab wild tracks and run some sort of backup all the time.  I recall producers and directors being startled when I told them I could run off and grab some wild lines or SFX without all the camera + VTR gak being involved.  And more than a few scenes etc were saved by that audio when there were camera or deck problems, even back then.  I'm very happy that double system audio made a comeback and is more or less SOP again, I'm much better able to do my job with me controlling the means of sound recording, not a camera op or video tech.

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1 hour ago, Philip Perkins said:

I don't know all the settings of cameras and I'm not going to try and do a shooters (or ACs) job for them.  But I am going to make sure there is some recorded audio at the end of the day no matter what they do or don't do.  It's just not that tough to contrive a backup audio recording anymore.  Like a lot of the other oldsters around here, I come from a background in film sound recording, like with me having an audio recorder on set.  When video ascended and suddenly all audio had to be recorded on the camera or VTR soundtracks I hated not only the leash of the cable but that now the shooter decided when I could record audio.  So even back in the 3/4" and 1" days I added recorder to my rig, even if it was just a good cassette machine.  I wanted to be able to grab wild tracks and run some sort of backup all the time.  I recall producers and directors being startled when I told them I could run off and grab some wild lines or SFX without all the camera + VTR gak being involved.  And more than a few scenes etc were saved by that audio when there were camera or deck problems, even back then.  I'm very happy that double system audio made a comeback and is more or less SOP again, I'm much better able to do my job with me controlling the means of sound recording, not a camera op or video tech.

This ^

I wouldn't go on any job without a recorder, would feel completely naked. I do however like to record reference audio on camera as well, when practical. 

The 633, as mentioned above is a very good investment. The 664 is also amazing and I have seen used ones pop up at very reasonable prices. (I am a happy owner of both). Lately some 788 and 744T have been sold at unicorn prices on this board and elsewhere. 

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  • 1 month later...

I'm an F55 owner, and will attest to the camera's difficult audio interface, nearly impossible for an operator to run while shooting. However, it should record audio when setup correctly - the comments about off speed cutting out audio are right on. Setting shutter speeds should be easy, and in the current release of firmware, the menu lag is virtually nil and the menus are quite easy to navigate. What is almost impossible is to adjust gain while shooting. There is a very simple way around both the monitoring and the gain adjustment challenges: use the camera's wifi capability. You can watch the meters on your phone and adjust gain as well as confirm when the camera's recording, tc, as well as make many changes to the camera via the menu changes. I'm always surprised so few people use this as it really works well and, for Sony, is quite well laid out. All you need is a phone and the tiny wifi plug in the camera and the web address for the camera and voila, you have a fully functioning remote with real time camera info and controls.

I finally bought a 633 and am almost always operating double system now as trying to work around the audio interface interfered too much with shooting. A great camera, but audio definitely was a second thought in the design.

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  • 3 weeks later...

F5/55 are computers with a lens on the front. As mentioned going off speed drops out the audio and timecode,  sometimes the camera needs "rebooting" or power cycling is some functions don't reappear. That's why I consider the audio on the camera is an editorial scratch track with production sound being recorded separately. That way I can concentrate on recording  sound not on getting my sound to the camera. 

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