Richard Ragon Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Ok, Carts been filling up over the years, and I've always looked out about converting over to a 12vdc system, so that one day I can run 100% off of pelican batteries. Currently, I have have a massive amount of "wall warts". So I have several power strips all plugged into an APC backup. This system works great and I can loose power on location, but only for about 60-90 minutes. The trouble.. unsightly and untidy. So, I just bought a new PSC Cart Power, and I'm going to begin my conversions. The PSC cart power has 6 12vdc/5A outs. However, I noticed that allthough most all things on the cart are 12vdc, they have a wide verity of amps. Most all of the wall warts do 12vdc, but under 1A. The mixer can be converted, and I have a Fostex thats works, but my Lectrosonics Quad box has an odd way that it's wired.. using an adaptor with 15VDC/2.5A wired to pins 3 and 4. Can I create a special wired plug for that Quad box using the cart power? Does it matter with the Amps on these low voltage chargers? Would be awesome if I can get these items on the Cart Power. I can then remove the UPS system, and think about a battery system instead. Thanks everyone. -Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 but my Lectrosonics Quad box has an odd way that it's wired.. using an adaptor with 15VDC/2.5A wired to pins 3 and 4. Richard, I thought that was for charging the internal gel cell for the quad box? Pin 1 and 4 with +12VDC will work, just that it will draw more current. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jimg Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Does it matter with the Amps on these low voltage chargers? Hi, Richard. Check and see what the manual for each piece of gear says. The current rating might be to account for start-up requirements or simply because that's what the OEM supply the manufacturer chose supplies. It's OK to run multiple pieces of gear on a single output so long as you don't exceed the fuse rating on each output. But beware of noise that can come out of prosumer-style gear via DC input connectors since the first place that manufacturers seem to scrimp is there. Best regards and my best wishes for a safe and prosperous 2009, Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Richard, The 5 amps is total for the Cart Power. So you probably will not be able to run everything through it with the power requirements of today's carts. I bought a power minder of sorts from Wolf Seeberg, which can be placed in line between your battery and Cart Power to you can determine your draw when everything is running. It also keeps an eye on your voltage, etc. Until recently, I was using a Cart Power AND a Power Station to run my gear. Now I have the Powermax Ultra, and it has really cleaned up and simplified my cart. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 However, I noticed that allthough most all things on the cart are 12vdc, they have a wide verity of amps. Most all of the wall warts do 12vdc, but under 1A. The mixer can be converted, and I have a Fostex thats works, but my Lectrosonics Quad box has an odd way that it's wired.. using an adaptor with 15VDC/2.5A wired to pins 3 and 4. Can I create a special wired plug for that Quad box using the cart power? Does it matter with the Amps on these low voltage chargers?... Briefly... The current requirements of your equipment cannot be determined by the current rating on your wall warts. An exception would be the wall wart for the Lectro Quad Box, which is spec'd to also be the charger for the internal lead acid battery. In the case of the Lectro Quad Box, 12V will power it with no problem, but the internal battery will not charge properly with 12V, even if pins 2 & 3 are connected. I believe a minimum of 13.8V across pins 2 & 3 would be required to keep the battery properly charged, but even this voltage would take a while to recharge the battery if depleted. Otherwise, the current requirements of your equipment will not matter unless the actual current used exceeds the maximum of the PSC Cart Power's capacity (published as 8A) which, at some point, will likely trip the breaker. Typical cart setups pull between 5 amps and 8 amps (mine usually pulls about 7A@13.8V), so it is unlikely that you would exceed 8A. The notable exception would be if your cart includes the Yamaha 01V digital mixer, which pulls about 8A all by itself, in which case you may need a second PSC Cart Power supply. Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel McIntosh Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 You may find that the PSC Cart Power can quickly be overwhelmed. I started with the original PSC Powermax. I liked the fact that it was able to output 6V, 12V, or 15V, all at the same time. But alas I eventually overwhelmed that and moved up to the Powermax Ultra. http://www.professionalsound.com/specs/ultra.htm Glen did not mention the Meon. (I for one certainly would not have flamed him for doing so;) This is the alternative to the PMUltra. There are pros and cons to them both, and a lengthy discussion about them was waged here some time ago. http://trewaudio.com/remoteaudio/meon/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 The notable exception would be if your cart includes the Yamaha 01V digital mixer, which pulls about 8A all by itself, in which case you may need a second PSC Cart Power supply. My entire current draw varies between 9 and 10 amps, *including* charging the onboard 32ah battery. That is is the 01v96 and its associated inverter, MOTU Traveler, SD 744T, Denecke GR-1, Lectro Venue, Lectro 411, incandescent little lamp, and a 7" lcd. My cart is completely powered by a single Samlex 15amp battery charger with the exception of the Powerbook, which is AC powered as it contains its own battery backup system. So, regardless of what it states on the rear panel, it seems highly unlikely that the Yamaha is drawing anywhere near 8 amps. Possibly as a surge on start up, but even then I highly doubt it. Cheers, Darren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philip Perkins Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 I'd add up what you have and call Ron at PSC for help w/ your Cart Power box. He's very helpful with this kind of support. The Cart Power has worked well for me with my relatively unbusy cart. Philip Perkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Slightly off-topic, but I did a test that I cannot believe was true - I took a power meter from an electric and metered the draw of my sound cart. I have everything going through Powermax Ultra, then through a Zero Surge surge protector and then to genny or house power. So I turned on everything, and I mean everything (Deva burning a DVD-RAM and all), and the draw was less than 2 amps! It was 1.8 - 1.9! That means on my pelican 33 amp-hour battery I should have 15 hours of battery, but I've gotten only about 3 or 4 before the Powermax meter goes down to low. So the question is, how do you actually measure the draw of one's cart? By the way I also have a Cart Power and an old school Powermax and I use them all at various times... To Richard I would say the Powermax Ultra or Meon is "da bomb." Dan Izen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPSharman Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Dan, Were you measuring the AC draw? 1.8a at 110v is 16a at 12v, give or take. If you have an AC board on an inverter and other high draw gear, you might indeed be drawing this much, which would overwhelm anything other than the Powermax Ultra or the Meon. Robert Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 My entire current draw varies between 9 and 10 amps, *including* charging the onboard 32ah battery. That is is the 01v96 and its associated inverter, MOTU Traveler, SD 744T, Denecke GR-1, Lectro Venue, Lectro 411, incandescent little lamp, and a 7" lcd. My cart is completely powered by a single Samlex 15amp battery charger with the exception of the Powerbook, which is AC powered as it contains its own battery backup system. So, regardless of what it states on the rear panel, it seems highly unlikely that the Yamaha is drawing anywhere near 8 amps. Possibly as a surge on start up, but even then I highly doubt it. Cheers, Darren Hi Darren, Here are some actual measured current consumption figures at 13.8 Volts (measured by the Meon cart power supply): Motu Traveler: 0.5A GR-1: less than 0.1A SD-744T (no battery installed): 0.5A Lectro Venue (6 receivers installed): 1.2A Lectro UCR-411: 0.1A 7" LCD (Remote Audio): 0.6 Little Lite Lamp: 0.1A Typical float charge current of a 32Ahr battery: 0.2A Total current draw without mixer: 3.2A For a cart drawing 10A, that leaves 6.8A for the Yamaha mixer and inverter, which is pretty darn close to 8A, which is about what I'd expect. One significant variable here is the amount of charge needed by the batter battery, which might vary from 0.2A (fully charged) to 10A (fully discharged; maximum recommended for a 30A/hr lead acid battery). If anyone can provide an actual current draw measurement of the O1V/inverter combination (with A-D converters in use), this would be interesting. Best, Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Slightly off-topic, but I did a test that I cannot believe was true - I took a power meter from an electric and metered the draw of my sound cart. I have everything going through Powermax Ultra, then through a Zero Surge surge protector and then to genny or house power. So I turned on everything, and I mean everything (Deva burning a DVD-RAM and all), and the draw was less than 2 amps! It was 1.8 - 1.9! That means on my pelican 33 amp-hour battery I should have 15 hours of battery, but I've gotten only about 3 or 4 before the Powermax meter goes down to low. So the question is, how do you actually measure the draw of one's cart? By the way I also have a Cart Power and an old school Powermax and I use them all at various times... To Richard I would say the Powermax Ultra or Meon is "da bomb." Dan Izen Dan, Unless your cart consists of the Deva and very little else, I'd bet that you were measuring the current draw from your 120VAC mains supply. In these comparisons, the constant is not current (Amps) but "power" which is measured in Watts. From your measurement, after factoring in the possibility of line loss down to 110VAC, your cart seems to be requiring about 200 Watts (P=IE (Watts=Amps X Volts), which would take roughly 16 Amps@12V). Some of this current might have been being used to charge your battery (up to 10A max would be reasonable), which would leave about 6A for your cart, which would explain the battery life you mentioned. Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Wow Glen. I'm impressed! All good to know. I can also tell you that with a TOTALLY flat battery (as in forgot to shut off the inverter at night and arrived to a low voltage alarm in the morning), My ammeter read 13 amps. The point I was trying to make was that a single 15 amp PSU should be about enough to power almost any cart. Not every cart, but almost... Cheers, and Happy New Year to all! Darren Hi Darren, Here are some actual measured current consumption figures at 13.8 Volts (measured by the Meon cart power supply): Motu Traveler: 0.5A GR-1: less than 0.1A SD-744T (no battery installed): 0.5A Lectro Venue (6 receivers installed): 1.2A Lectro UCR-411: 0.1A 7" LCD (Remote Audio): 0.6 Little Lite Lamp: 0.1A Typical float charge current of a 32Ahr battery: 0.2A Total current draw without mixer: 3.2A For a cart drawing 10A, that leaves 6.8A for the Yamaha mixer and inverter, which is pretty darn close to 8A, which is about what I'd expect. One significant variable here is the amount of charge needed by the batter battery, which might vary from 0.2A (fully charged) to 10A (fully discharged; maximum recommended for a 30A/hr lead acid battery). If anyone can provide an actual current draw measurement of the O1V/inverter combination (with A-D converters in use), this would be interesting. Best, Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 A/D's are always on. There is no way to shut them off. Same for D/A's. If no one else does it first. I can make this measurement in a couple of weeks when I finish my vacation. Of course mileage may vary greatly depending on the inverter used. Best, Darren If anyone can provide an actual current draw measurement of the O1V/inverter combination (with A-D converters in use), this would be interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Izen Ears Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Yes! This makes much more sense to be around 15 or 16 amps. Yes I was measuring the A/C draw from the Zero Surge, which was powering the PMU that did have a battery that was about fully charged. (Stuff being powered was the Deva, Cameo II, 8 receivers, 2 190 txs, Comtek BST, PSC 1x8 antenna splitter and 2 LCD monitors.) Thanks for solving the mystery! Now that it's been explained it makes perfect sense, duhhh. Dan Izen Dan, Were you measuring the AC draw? 1.8a at 110v is 16a at 12v, give or take. If you have an AC board on an inverter and other high draw gear, you might indeed be drawing this much, which would overwhelm anything other than the Powermax Ultra or the Meon. Robert Dan, Unless your cart consists of the Deva and very little else, I'd bet that you were measuring the current draw from your 120VAC mains supply. In these comparisons, the constant is not current (Amps) but "power" which is measured in Watts. From your measurement, after factoring in the possibility of line loss down to 110VAC, your cart seems to be requiring about 200 Watts (P=IE (Watts=Amps X Volts), which would take roughly 16 Amps@12V). Some of this current might have been being used to charge your battery (up to 10A max would be reasonable), which would leave about 6A for your cart, which would explain the battery life you mentioned. Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Davies Amps CAS Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Richard! Trew Audio do a 12 volt juicer which will give you 15 volts out. Here in the UK we nearly all work on 12 volt cart power as you can't always rely on getting AC power from the sparks. I also use one of the Trew Juicers to provide 24 volts for my Cooper 106. My total power at 12 volts for my cart with a Deva V, Mixer, 4 way radio Rack 2 monitors and an in ear monitor transmitter is about 5amps. Regards, Malcolm Davies. A.m.p.s. (Production Sound Mixer.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Trew Posted January 2, 2009 Report Share Posted January 2, 2009 Glen did not mention the Meon. (I for one certainly would not have flamed him for doing so;) This is the alternative to the PMUltra. There are pros and cons to them both, and a lengthy discussion about them was waged here some time ago. http://trewaudio.com/remoteaudio/meon/ Since Daniel mentioned the Meon and the discussion from earlier this year, I should mention that now the Meon operates with 110VAC-240VAC, adjusting automatically. On a side note, and as a public service, I'll mention that one of the early 120VAC-only Meons was recently traded in on a new one. It was made in early 2008 and will be sold with a 1-year warranty for US$950. Cosmetically it is about an 8.5 of 10. It has been cleaned and inspected, the old style router board has been replaced with a new one, then load tested, and all is well. When calculating shipping, keep in mind that this one is at the US Trew Audio location. For someone not planning to use their system outside of North America (not needing the 240VAC capability), it's a painless way to save $1000. It is not yet listed, so contact me off-group if you are interested. Regards, Glen Trew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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