Timecode Files, Now What

[Scott Selman]

Sorry if this is common sense, or something often talked about that I'm not searching for correctly, but I figured I'd just take a stab and see if I can get some opinions...

I typically do a lot of post work for the short films that my company produces - just comes with the territory.  In the past, not having a timecode recorder I would create new master video files after each shoot, creating files with the 2nd system audio built in with the video track - time consuming but it worked.

Fast forward to now - I have a 664 and we shot on a Weapon and everything was in TC heaven... so now what??

I've been told the whole point is so that editors can take the camera files w/ the scratch track - do their edit - and then somehow in some audio software (probably ProTools) I can get an EDL or XML and it will magically put my TC audio files into the right place and add all the iso tracks - and all that good stuff...

So how do I do that...

I typically use Logic or Adobe Audition for my smaller mixing work - is this a ProTools only thing? I'm working with editors who use Premiere, not Avid..

Thanks for all your help in advance!!

[Philip Perkins]

Best easiest is for you to post sync your 664 files to the camera files before you start cutting.  If audio and video have the same TC you might could get the "field recorder" workflow to work for you in PT, but it is a fraught enterprise and requires workflow tweaking (ie time) to make it work.  I don't think Logic or Audition can do this for you.  If the eds will sync up all the files before cutting so that all the audio files get passed from the NLE to the export you can avoid all that conform work, a good thing.

[Scott Selman]

Thanks Philip!

[Philip Perkins]

BTW....I'd suggest a workflow test before you start shooting, or buy gear or apps.....right?

[sarcanon]

13 hours ago, Philip Perkins said:

If audio and video have the same TC you might could get the "field recorder" workflow to work for you in PT, but it is a fraught enterprise and requires workflow tweaking (ie time) to make it work.  I don't think Logic or Audition can do this for you.

Unless I'm mistaken, the field recorder workflow is a feature of Pro Tools HD, and not the standard Pro Tools. Also, there are third party software applications that streamline the production audio conforming process, of which EdiLoad is probably the most well known.

But as Phil suggests, it's far simpler if you can get picture editorial department to take this on. That's not always possible, unfortunately.

[Philip Perkins]

Ediload is fairly PT centric as well.  For lower budg projects one way to keep things simple is to restrain the number of tracks used in the field so that the editors will"carry" all the tracks thru the edit to the export.  If many tracks are needed all the time then some version of conforming is needed.  The PTHD method works of you follow the rules, but there are other more bespoke methods possible if there is time and will to do workflow testing. 

[Christian Spaeth]

There is a free version of Davinci Resolve that supposedly does a good job syncing video and audio. I haven't tried it but have heard post folks talk about positively it so maybe check that out. There is a also a very good app from Tentacly Sync but I think it's only good for syncing video by audio TC (DSLR style, so maybe not useful in your case), and if you don't have a Tentacle, you'll need a license.

[Philip Perkins]

These are good for syncing dailies but they aren't conforming tools that I'm aware of.

[Scott Selman]

Wow - so why all the big deal with TC if I can just sync in Plural Eyes or Premiere using the audio track? What'd I spend all this money for

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Philip Perkins]

PE or the Premiere audio sync thing isn't 100% reliable, and the less similar the ref track is to the master the less reliable it is (like the onboard mic of a DSLR etc).  You just get close, then you check it all by eye.  Resolve etc can autosync to TC, which is more accurate if everyone has followed the rules.  Again, these are dailies syncing tools.  What the orig post is about is conforming audio after an edit. 

[Constantin]

Again, these are dailies syncing tools.  What the orig post is about is conforming audio after an edit. 

Although I do wonder if a post edit conform could in fact be achieved with PluralEyes?

I have never worked with PluralEyes myself, but if the mix track the editor used isn't too wildly different from the isos, it could work?

[Philip Perkins]

I guess it could but it would be very messy to set up.  Wouldn't you have to go find all the relevant clips manually and get them into the time line close to the ref so PE could fine them?  Since the app assumes you know which field takes (cam with audio, master audio) to start with in the daily-syncing regimen?   Once the film is edited and the orig scenes are broken up into edits?   I've never heard of anyone using PE this way, it would be cool if it worked.  The whole PT Field Recorder+Ediload etc deal or etc is expensive and fraught.

[Paul Katzman]

On July 25, 2016 at 5:57 PM, Christian Spaeth said:

There is a free version of Davinci Resolve that supposedly does a good job syncing video and audio. I haven't tried it but have heard post folks talk about positively it so maybe check that out. There is a also a very good app from Tentacly Sync but I think it's only good for syncing video by audio TC (DSLR style, so maybe not useful in your case), and if you don't have a Tentacle, you'll need a license.

FYI the Tentacle Sync Studio software (Mac OS only) will happily sync files with audio timecode as well as ones with "proper" file TC. I use it this way frequently, sometimes re-exporting synced media or more usually creating XMLs for Premiere.

[Philip Perkins]

That's cool, but in post you will have many instances of the same original file TC referring to diff audio (scenes) from diff days.  That's where the conforming apps etc come in, juggling the editorial TC, the orig file TC, other metadata, and then finding the correct multitrack original audio group to conform to the cut.  This is not a trivial undertaking, and even under the best of circumstances there are still "mysteries" to be solved.  This is why those apps are so spendy, and PT only lets owners of the high-end app have access to their conform feature. However, esp in the indie world, a cheap or free solution, bespoke or no, that gets you down the road even just a ways is a win for sure.

[dslrshooter]

Hi, sorry to revive an old post, but surely I'm not the only noob confused by how TC (metadata or AUX TC) is used in workflows. I presume the answer varies based on the production size (from one man team to big commercial feature-length film).

 

My confusion has been ignited by this Mr Selman post:

 

On 7/20/2016 at 6:24 PM, Scott Selman said:

[..] I have a 664 and we shot on a Weapon and everything was in TC heaven... so now what??

I've been told the whole point is so that editors can take the camera files w/ the scratch track - do their edit - and then somehow in some audio software (probably ProTools) I can get an EDL or XML and it will magically put my TC audio files into the right place and add all the iso tracks [..]

 

To which members replied this task is called conforming and can be done (without guarantee of success) with tools like Avid PT Ultimate (600 USD/yr) Field Recording Workflow or Sounds In Sync Ediload (700USD).

 

My first question: What is the preferred workflow if one doesn't want to do conforming, apart from cutting with iso tracks alongside?

 

Also Mr Perkins added

 

On 7/25/2016 at 6:28 PM, Philip Perkins said:

These [Tentacly Sync and Davinci Resolve apps] are good for syncing dailies but they aren't conforming tools that I'm aware of.

 

I think LTC Convert from VideoToolShed can do this too?

 

So TC is used to sync dailies, producing raw clips aligned with a scratch track (ie: a rough mixdown made while shooting); those clips are then edited on a NLE to produce a rough cut and eventually a final "Picture Locked" cut. It is only then  that the sound editor is asked to remix everything: ISOs, foleys and ADR ? Whereas the editorial TC has then no link with the shooting TC???

 

So all those fancy boxes are used to sync a scratch track that will always be ditched? And then you have to pay through the nose for conforming apps and cross your finger they'll do their magic? Do I get it right? Hope not...

 

"Eh, those are the tools of the trade... If you're a pro, that's the price to pay"😑

 

 

[The Documentary Sound Guy]

24 minutes ago, dslrshooter said:

My first question: What is the preferred workflow if one doesn't want to do conforming, apart from cutting with iso tracks alongside?

 

Don't transfer the edit between different programs.  I.e., do your edit, sound etc. all in one edit suite.  Obviously, this comes with limitations, which is why larger scale productions tend to go through a conform process as the edit passes through different stages of post.  But it's increasingly possible with programs like Resolve, and it's vastly preferable if you are operating on a small scale and you don't need the high-end capabilities of various different programs.

 

28 minutes ago, dslrshooter said:

So TC is used to sync dailies, producing raw clips aligned with a scratch track (ie: a rough mixdown made while shooting); those clips are then edited on a NLE to produce a rough cut and eventually a final "Picture Locked" cut. It is only then  that the sound editor is asked to remix everything: ISOs, foleys and ADR ? Whereas the editorial TC has then no link with the shooting TC???

 

I would ordinarily consider the camera audio the scratch track, so often there is no sync step needed for the picture editor to start working.  But as has been said, it's much easier to sync the production audio to picture when the footage is logged, not after the edit has been completed.  With that in mind, it's certainly possible for the picture editor to use the synced production audio as a scratch track.  If the picture editor has made some tweaks and has done a decent job, the sound editor may even use it as a starting point for the sound edit, but this isn't necessarily the norm.  Most sound editors / designers will probably want to start with the raw audio files as they build their mix.

 

The point of the scratch track is ease of use during the picture edit, so it's not a pointless endeavour.  But yes, a typical post workflow does treat the sound mix as a separate stage, and it's also typically done by a separate person or team.  This workflow is post 101, and it's been that way since talkies were invented.  Digital NLEs and modern production has blurred the lines, but this is still the way things are done by any production larger than a one-person operation.  As soon as you have separate sound and picture editors, you need some way of coordinating between the two, and the easiest way to do that is serially, with picture locked before sound starts working.

 

When the project is sent to the sound department, typically the timeline will be sent as some variety of EDL, which is an edit list that notes in and out TC for all the source clips (source timecode, which you've called "shooting TC"), and notes where each clip begins and ends on the timeline (rec timecode, which you've called "editorial TC").  So, it's not the case that there's no link back to the original timecode, it's just been made more complicated in that there are now multiple timecodes to worry about:  Source timecode, i.e. which parts of the original footage are used, and Record timecode, i.e. where those bits of footage belong in the edited sequence.  So, yes, the sound editor will typically start from scratch using the raw recordings, but they still need to be able to assemble the raw recordings to match the picture edit that has been made.  This re-assembly is the conform process.

 

48 minutes ago, dslrshooter said:

So all those fancy boxes are used to sync a scratch track that will always be ditched? And then you have to pay through the nose for conforming apps and cross your finger they'll do their magic? Do I get it right? Hope not...

 

No, as noted above, the source timecode is still needed as part of the conform process.  But, because a sequence is typically edited from multiple days of footage, you can't count on source timecode being unique across all clips (i.e. there will probably be raw footage shot on different days that have overlapping timecode).  For that reason, the conform process needs to know which timecode corresponds to which ciip (i.e. which video files and audio files belong together).  Conforming gets really ugly when the correspondence between which audio files match which video files isn't clear, which is why it's best to sync everything at the start of the edit process and let the production audio follow the video through the picture edit, even if the picture editor is using the scratch track to edit from.  Ideally, the picture editor may be editing from the scratch track, but the production audio is still linked to the video clips (and probably most / all production tracks are disabled but still linked to allow the picture editor to focus on picture).

 

Conform is generally straightforward *if you plan for it*.  It often gets messy because managing post workflow is the post supervisor's job, not the picture editor's job, and especially on small / indie productions, and the picture editor may not be following good practice during the picture edit (since it's not their job).  Sometimes the post workflow may not be fully known at the start of the process, and the picture editor just adds footage to the project in whatever way suits them, without thinking about the needs of the sound editor.  Inevitably, picture and sound get de-linked, nobody knows exactly what matches what, there's things like SFX and temp music which are brought in after the fact and which don't match any picture, and sorting out that mess is what makes conform just a pain in the ass.  But, as I said, it's only a mess if you don't plan for it.

 

-----------

 

All of this is a bit outside the scope of what is usually discussed here.  This is primarily a forum for location sound recording, not for post sound.  I'm happy to share my knowledge, but it sounds like you really should be asking these questions on a post forum, and you should probably read a book or two about how post generally works in general, since a lot of this is fairly basic, standardized workflow.  If you are trying to figure this out for yourself, inventing something that works for you on the basis of feedback on forums is probably not going to save you from making mistakes that other people have made.  It sounds like there's a lot you don't know you don't know, and you'll probably save yourself some headaches if you read up on common post processes and / or talk to a post supervisor about the specifics of what you are trying to do.

[dslrshooter]

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

9 hours ago, The Documentary Sound Guy said:

No, as noted above, the source timecode is still needed as part of the conform process.

 

Ya, I didn't say TC was unused and didn't write "So all those fancy boxes are only used to sync a scratch track"

 

If there is no TC, the conforming software will have to use waveform analysis and/or metadata matching to find files... munching lots of CPU cycles.

 

Quote

All of this is a bit outside the scope of what is usually discussed here.  This is primarily a forum for location sound recording, not for post sound

 

🤔

 

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