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Getting gigs and quality Gear


ndg2k005

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A small thing: some of us oldsters did not start with Nagras, or at least not all the time (ie rentals).  Esp when I was living in a small non-movie biz city we did a lot of jobs on lesser machines, like cassette or a Uher.  We were def in the Ramen-diet zone, and often went to gigs on bicycles since we didn't have cars or gas was too expensive (remember the Gas Crisis)?   We shot super 8 film or 1/2" b/w open-reel "portapak" video, maybe some 16mm when there was a little money.  Life at the bottom/start hasn't changed that much, but the tools avail now are much better.   The "race to the bottom" was lost decades ago: there are plenty of low-ballers with really good gear, so don't slam a newb because they are trying to make do with cheaper tools.  Today's cheaper tools are plenty good enough if they are well-driven.  As for who really cares about what tools a soundie uses, the folks who really care the most are....other soundies.

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1 hour ago, afewmoreyears said:

 

 

I mean this to be informative and to offer a different perspective....

   I cant help but think that all this talk about the cheap way to go simply furthers the race to the bottom situation...  Doing jobs with bare bones, minimalist packages and systems...  I dislike the whole ball of wax.... why, because the people doing this are in competition with others who actually have spent the funds, begged, borrowed or stolen ....  You can argue the point, but... we all TRY to do the big gigs... all the time... however, sometimes the phone rings for the little gigs.... and I show up with all the proper gear and try to come to a reasonable agreement on price...   Now,  why should the Producer and the show have to have someone with a lesser mixer/recorder, mics, wireless and such at the same price point...?  

  When I started it was all Nagras...   and... if I went out to do a job, I rented or borrowed all the proper gear and went without the gear income to both do the job right and learn on the proper gear in the first place...  I gave that income away to be properly prepared.... And, to look like I knew what I was doing...  Even though there were really no other gear choices..  Even if there were, I would of wanted to appear as deserving of the job and position I was placed in... I knew it was for only a while until I could slowly build the right kit and continue to move forward... 

I just don't know about the flood of people plowing into this profession with zoom recorders and other gear posturing as ...well ...  like equipped and prepared persons...

If you are going to get involved and compete with the rest of us... do it once, do it correctly... do it smart... build a kit and your experience and have at it....  

If you plan, buy right... take your time... learn... and then compete... you will never have to worry about showing up with a Zoom and a Cheesy mic...  DO NOT BE FOOLED... Producers DO KNOW...  They look at my gear and discuss it with me often...if they don't the camera guys and others do.. you don't want the label of someone other than the best guy they could have there that day...  At least do all you can to bring the most to the table to show your worth... 

Forget about making money when you start.... as I said, spend your "income" on renting the gear, the good stuff,  to do your job"... make your money after two years of doing this and slowly buying your first package... slowly and wisely!!!

People always ask... how did you get started... I say..." I ate Top Ramen and eggs for two years "  I spent all my money on gear....

 

Here's your analogy.... you drive for UBER Black.... a client calls and you show up in a perfectly functioning black KIA Soul...   Gets the job done, but not what they were probably expecting....  Either it's a professional job or not.... If it is... They want someone with the skills and gear...  not just the showing up part...

My.02

Good luck...

All of the above is correct. The painful part that I was told about, but yet couldn't believe, that I learned from one of the big mixers, is how little sound people make. I mean mixers, not people of sound mind. So, I switched from being a photographer that made more than mixers make, because if you wanted a particular photographers style, you paid that photographer, or settled for what you could afford. Here is where I get in trouble, Sound isn't the art that photography is. I can look at many photos, and based on, the paper, the film used, the contrast, the way it is composed, choice of lens., depth of field, whether the blacks are black, or brown chocolatey, I can tell who the photographer was. If you want that look you hire that guy, or girl. But with sound, the producer says "we need good sound", that's it. Great photographers make in an hour what mixers make all day. That has been hard for me to believe. All can weigh in on this, but how many times has someone looked at hiring us for their 20k-80k project, and you check with them later, and they can't make a final product because the sound is horrible. But over and over they repeat this mistake. As we speak, some poor slob is paying a "mixer" $100. A day, with no comteks, too tired for Daileys at the end of the day, only to find out long after wrap, since they weren't listening to what the "mixer" was getting, they have a movie all ready for 30 days of ADR. Everyone that wants to shoot something knows they need a Red whatever model is popular this week, but yet they think an h4 and a Rode will win them the Oscar.

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1 hour ago, MartinTheMixer said:

Everyone that wants to shoot something knows they need a Red whatever model is popular this week, but yet they think an h4 and a Rode will win them the Oscar.

actually these days the situation with camera gear is very similar to sound...

a 3000USD Sony A7s makes a lot better pictures then a 50000USD camera ten years ago, and if with a good DoP the A7s will look much better then if you have a mediocre DoP using a Red or Alexa (similar to how a good sound recordist will make better recordings with a Zoom F8 and some Rode mics then a mediocre one with a Cantar and some Schoeps).

 

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4 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

actually these days the situation with camera gear is very similar to sound...

a 3000USD Sony A7s makes a lot better pictures then a 50000USD camera ten years ago, and if with a good DoP the A7s will look much better then if you have a mediocre DoP using a Red or Alexa (similar to how a good sound recordist will make better recordings with a Zoom F8 and some Rode mics then a mediocre one with a Cantar and some Schoeps).

 

You are talking digits, which I never shot on. Yuck. I am referring to film. What you are referring to is the daily "here is the new gizmo camera of the week". That didn't exist in film. I could go shoot right now on my 1990's film camera and it would look better than this week's digi gizmo camera. Especially with black and white.

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1 hour ago, Philip Perkins said:

A small thing: some of us oldsters did not start with Nagras, or at least not all the time (ie rentals).  Esp when I was living in a small non-movie biz city we did a lot of jobs on lesser machines, like cassette or a Uher.  We were def in the Ramen-diet zone, and often went to gigs on bicycles since we didn't have cars or gas was too expensive (remember the Gas Crisis)?   We shot super 8 film or 1/2" b/w open-reel "portapak" video, maybe some 16mm when there was a little money.  Life at the bottom/start hasn't changed that much, but the tools avail now are much better.   The "race to the bottom" was lost decades ago: there are plenty of low-ballers with really good gear, so don't slam a newb because they are trying to make do with cheaper tools.  Today's cheaper tools are plenty good enough if they are well-driven.  As for who really cares about what tools a soundie uses, the folks who really care the most are....other soundies.

Good points for sure Philip...

Anyone good enough to wring out quality mixes from let's just say substandard gear, should most likely be working with the better gear or quickly moving in that direction.

 No slamming....   I am trying to give a different perspective.  

And yes the war was lost years ago..

It's a tough job to get started in. I always thought people were better off booming for a while (years), learning, networking, understanding all the different gear inside and out, then buying some gear and transitioning slowly into mixing. Starting from scratch, buying cheaper gear to get going, and trying to make a living is a tough way to get at it. 

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19 minutes ago, MartinTheMixer said:

You are talking digits, which I never shot on. Yuck. I am referring to film. What you are referring to is the daily "here is the new gizmo camera of the week". That didn't exist in film. I could go shoot right now on my 1990's film camera and it would look better than this week's digi gizmo camera. Especially with black and white.

completely agree.. I did a shoot on 35mm last month, we did a test side by side with an Alexa before hand, everybody agreed that the film dailies looked much better. And I cry when I see "Celebrities" or "Otto e mezzo" and see how much worse quality of black and white is 50 years later : (

Sorry for side tracking - somehow it is connected with getting gigs and qua lit gear though

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13 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

completely agree.. I did a shoot on 35mm last month, we did a test side by side with an Alexa before hand, everybody agreed that the film dailies looked much better. And I cry when I see "Celebrities" or "Otto e mezzo" and see how much worse quality of black and white is 50 years later : (

Sorry for side tracking - somehow it is connected with getting gigs and qua lit gear though

Yes, it is a cousin of the getting gigs discussion for sure.

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just get a used roland r88 when you are ready. Personally, I think Its the best of both worlds.. its the cheapest recorder/mixer out there to my knowledge. And its obscure enough that any posh producer or crew won't know what it is. They will just come over and say "ah hey cool whatever." I should mention that I have never used an r88 before, but hey if I was in your shoes with super limited budget, tying to find a way in.. thats what I would get. Also, like others have mentioned, rent stuff as you go needing it if your budget is limited.  Sound away. 

r-88_set1.jpg

PS. that mixing control you can get later separately.. but no worries there are tiny faders on top of the trim knobs

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Chiming in late here...

I have always pondered gear purchases based on two questions:

  • Will this be a good investment--will it earn me money, and will it hold its value if I want to resell it or trade up? There's no doubt that a Zoom F8 (or equivalent) can earn you money pretty quickly.  But I find it doubtful that these would have very much value on the used market in a year or two.  SD and Zaxcom (and Lectrosonics) customer service is second to none, so you'll be able to keep that investment earning you income for years upon years.
  • Will this make my work experience more pleasant? This to me is the bigger point.  This is YOUR kit, and you are gonna have to be behind the wheels of it every working day for the rest of your career.  Choose gear that makes you happy when you flip the switch.  Seriously.  The minute something in my kit feels 2nd rate, or could be replaced by a faster/stronger/lighter/better piece, I usually make the switch within a few months.  Why? Because it makes me feel better going to work every day.  Working with gear I wasn't proud of would make this job unbearable.  Obviously when you're starting out in your career, this cannot be the primary deciding factor, but it must be part of the equation. 

If I were starting out, I would buy the very best I could afford, and grow from there.  The SD633 Seems to me like it would be an amazing starter mixer/recorder--frankly it is a great tool at any experience level.  I'd look at used Lectrosonics Systems (401's and UM400's did me right when I was starting out), or the 1st round of the most recent Zaxcom Wireless (QRX100's and TRXLAs--many people have traded these up for the neverclip-enabled models and dumped the older ones).  That said, the sennheiser G3s are a great value, and with upgraded Lavs sound great.  A Used Sennheiser 416 should be a mandatory first mic purchase, period.

Most importantly, build a relationship with a trusted salesperson at one of the "usual suspects".  I highly recommend talking to Rich Topham, Jr. at Pro Sound if you can track him down--he's spending less and less time in the NY shop these days it seems, though his son, Rich III (R3) or Justin or any of the sales people who have been at it a while know their stuff.  Rich's guidance and wealth of experience was crucial to me when I started building my kit.  Whoever you choose to work with, build that relationship and trust, and it will repay you as you move along in your career.

Best of luck!

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13 minutes ago, Solid Goldberger said:

Chiming in late here...

I have always pondered gear purchases based on two questions:

  • Will this be a good investment--will it earn me money, and will it hold its value if I want to resell it or trade up? There's no doubt that a Zoom F8 (or equivalent) can earn you money pretty quickly.  But I find it doubtful that these would have very much value on the used market in a year or two.  SD and Zaxcom (and Lectrosonics) customer service is second to none, so you'll be able to keep that investment earning you income for years upon years.
  • Will this make my work experience more pleasant? This to me is the bigger point.  This is YOUR kit, and you are gonna have to be behind the wheels of it every working day for the rest of your career.  Choose gear that makes you happy when you flip the switch.  Seriously.  The minute something in my kit feels 2nd rate, or could be replaced by a faster/stronger/lighter/better piece, I usually make the switch within a few months.  Why? Because it makes me feel better going to work every day.  Working with gear I wasn't proud of would make this job unbearable.  Obviously when you're starting out in your career, this cannot be the primary deciding factor, but it must be part of the equation. 

If I were starting out, I would buy the very best I could afford, and grow from there.  The SD633 Seems to me like it would be an amazing starter mixer/recorder--frankly it is a great tool at any experience level.  I'd look at used Lectrosonics Systems (401's and UM400's did me right when I was starting out), or the 1st round of the most recent Zaxcom Wireless (QRX100's and TRXLAs--many people have traded these up for the neverclip-enabled models and dumped the older ones).  That said, the sennheiser G3s are a great value, and with upgraded Lavs sound great.  A Used Sennheiser 416 should be a mandatory first mic purchase, period.

Most importantly, build a relationship with a trusted salesperson at one of the "usual suspects".  I highly recommend talking to Rich Topham, Jr. at Pro Sound if you can track him down--he's spending less and less time in the NY shop these days it seems, though his son, Rich III (R3) or Justin or any of the sales people who have been at it a while know their stuff.  Rich's guidance and wealth of experience was crucial to me when I started building my kit.  Whoever you choose to work with, build that relationship and trust, and it will repay you as you move along in your career.

Best of luck!

I think I agree with most of that, but I would not want a 416, I would get a Sanken CS3E instead. 

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20 minutes ago, AnuarYahya said:

I think the budget is an important factor here. I agree there is nothing like good equipment, but the good stuff is normally out of reach for anybody trying to start out. 

Hello, I think you should get equipment for as good as your going to get at audio. I should have expected this, but didn't. There exists the same problem for people in the audio business as there was for people in the photography business. A lack of the ability to learn what is needed. I would have a photographer see a print of mine and ask who the printer was. I would tell them that I was the printer, and invariably, they would ask if I would print their negatives for them. I tried that once. The print looked bad because their negative looked bad. When I shot, I shot for the printer, which was me. When I record audio, I record for post. The real problem is that a lot of people want to do all the exciting stuff, working on a set, but don't, can't or won't do all the boring reading for hours, all alone, reading really unexciting stuff about the mechanics of sound on a Saturday night. They are out having fun. And since they don't learn all the boring math and the non-sexy stuff that it takes to do sound, they think whatever they think; there is not enough business, no one is hiring or whatever, they quit, and go work at Walmart, then there they are, at Walmart on Saturday night, not having fun, but at least they aren't stuck reading boring technical manuals. Right?

 

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On 4 augusti 2016 at 7:54 PM, ndg2k005 said:

So I decided to just let my thoughts go on the device and start focusing on wireless Mics because right now I can't afford a to make the wrong decision. I need what ever that makes money. Also, would you guys trust to buy a mixer on Ebay? And if the price is too good to be true Ya know? I don't know what too good to be true is.

I've bought stuff on eBay since 2000 or so, and been successful on all my purchases. * knock on wood *

You have to check the rating of the seller and the latest rating history, and if the price is too good to be true, then you have to consider that a legit ebay account might have been hijacked. Also check which other items that the seller have on sale at the moment.

No matter how small or cheap the item is, I always ask a couple of questions, just to get a dialogue going with the seller. On some occasions, the seller hasn't responded or answered in a strange manner - when that happens I just let it go, no matter how much I want the item.

Another thing you have to consider is counterfeits. You will find Sennheiser shotgun microphones at a bargain, a friend of mine bought one against my advice - sure enough, it was a counterfeit 416 that sounded like crap. You will also find Chinese wireless systems that looks exactly like Sennheiser G3 - it just doesn't say "Sennheiser". I can only imagine how those systems and lav mics sound.

In you case, starting out with your own EFP-kit, having a lot of questions, I suggest that you buy used from one of the pro stores, like Trew that you've already visited.

I don't know why they tried to talk you into buying a Zoom, but you should definitely go for a 552. It's built like a tank, sounds great, the limiters sounds great, the functionality is spot-on for run-and-gun and it's analogue. If you keep the knobs clean and be gentle with the connections making sure that the cabling is nice and tidy - then it will be a great companion that will just keep on working.

My advice is to get the 552, two or three G3 with DPA 4060 lav mics (or similar quality), a curled snake cable with quick-release (the pro shop will help you out with that), a sound bag (the shop will help you out), a KTEK harness (or such), a KTEK boom with built-in cable and a shotgun mic with a proper windshield. The pro shop probably has a lot of old NP1 batteries laying around, they will help you out with a good battery power system for your bag that won't cost much.

The kit will cost a bit, but you will have a solid kit for your field work, because in the field you will have to put all your energy on capturing the action, the gear just has to work, right?

When you need to record ISO tracks, well the 552 can output two AES/EBU feed to through the snake cable. If the camera has two AES/EBU inputs (like Sony F3 and F5), then you can send the first four channels straight to the camera - pre-fader if I'm not mistaken, but it works if you keep track of the levels with the gain knobs.

And if the production has a camera with two-channel input and still want ISO-tracks, then you hire a 633 and a time code box plus cables for those occasions. Just be prepared that you will be the one setting up the time code. Do a search on JW and you will find lots of information about time code.

 

Quote

Also, would you guys buy rode wireless Mics for documentary gigs, comercials and interviews? I understand lectrosonic is the standard but I don't have it like that right now. I really likely the rode wireless and didn't hear a big difference than the sennheiser G3 sound wise(on the net, not in person) thanks guys!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

 

I haven't used the Rode system, so I can't comment on its sound quality, latency or range. It looks a bit plastic to me, but if you like it, the go for it.

The G3-system has been used on a lot of documentaries, because it's cheap, pretty durable and sound good. Properly set up, it will give you good range and good sound quality. You just have to use a better lav mic than the one provided in the package.

The two-channel Sony URX-P03D receiver might also be a good start.

 

Like all things in life, you just have to decide to go for it, or not, right?

 

Good luck

Fred

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