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Zaxcom Nomad length of sync and display, your thoughts


MartinTheMixer

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Hello fellow Nomad users. I did a sync test with my Nomad vs./synced with a Denecke slate. I would like to hear what anyone, with or without a Nomad, has to say about my test and any flaws. My test was for 13 hours (so far). I synced the TS3 with the Nomad and 13 hours later I used a second slate and synced it up also. The 2 slates were both frame accurate, to each other. The Nomad was cycled on and off a few times during the 13 hours. Of interest, the display on the Nomad is no longer accurate, this of course is just the display, latency etc. It seems that maybe the Nomad display drifts, which I don't know why we would care much about that. Right? Ok, where is the flaw in my testing?

Thank you, Martin 

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Your test is fine, but why did you power-cycle the Nomad?  Traditionally a power-cycle of the master TC gen would mean that you'd re-jam everything in the system anyhow (most commonly @ meal breaks).  The tests I've done have been for 8 to 12 hrs with everything powered up the whole time.  How long was the recorder powered down when you cycled power?

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1 hour ago, Philip Perkins said:

Your test is fine, but why did you power-cycle the Nomad?  Traditionally a power-cycle of the master TC gen would mean that you'd re-jam everything in the system anyhow (most commonly @ meal breaks).  The tests I've done have been for 8 to 12 hrs with everything powered up the whole time.  How long was the recorder powered down when you cycled power?

Phillip, That part, the cycling, was on purpose. To answer your question, the Nomad was off, probably all but one hour of that period. If you think that part might matter, I will cycle it off and on about 10 times during the test, leaving it on about 50 percent of the time, that is not very real world, I know. Whenever they change scenes or between takes, if for instance we have a delivery truck, that is gonna be there for 10 minutest, I always power down. So, in a 12 hour day, I probably power down, maybe 8 times. And apparently, as I suspected, that does not appear to be a problem, reference the time code. Thoughts?

Sincerely, Martin 

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My thought is that many of us, myself included, power up the recorder (master TC gen) in the AM and leave it on until we wrap, hot swapping power sources if we're on battery.  That way the master TC generator keeps counting in sync, and the other devices can be resynced to it.  Some cart-based folks use an external master TC/clock generator (Denecke, Ambient etc) that feeds the recorder and jams everything else if they think they'll want to power down during the day (like for a company move), but my own pref is to just keep the recorder on and the TC counting in free run all the time; battery or AC power.  Seems simpler and more foolproof....   It is interesting to know how long your machine will hold sync when off, now you know this.

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Phillip, Thank you. I am at 16 hours now, still in sync. I will keep going until it falls out of sync and will post it here. Is maybe the reason people leave powered up, because of not just slate, but all those sync boxes on camera? I only have to worry about slate, not camera sync, because the cameras all get what timecode I have when I turn the mixer back on, so that's why I personally only concerning myself with slate sync.

Thank you, Martin 

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As far as I remember the Nomad holds TC when powered off, for about 3 hours. So if in your test you want to find out the max off-time, you'd need to keep Nomad off more than three hours in one cycle, not accumulative. If you want to keep it more aligned to your workflow, keep going.
But... what exactly are you trying to find out with this?

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Constantin, The Nomad was off a lot longer than 3 hours, probably more like 9. I was trying to come up with the number, just how long will Nomad stay in sync? If there was something that kept me from jamming at lunch, is it still accurate, or in sync? So far, it looks like the answer is yes. Also, could it be the Nomad falls out of sync before lunch? One of the first things I do on set, is slate sync. So, since that adds an extra 45 minutes to an hour, or more, before we roll, of the Slate being synced, was that a potential problem? It looks like a resounding no.

Sincerely, Martin 

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Not that I've found.  The standard recording devices in use for location dialog use have been good to hold drift to below 1 frame over at least 8 hours, if not 10 or more, going back into the Nagra TC days.  That's what's expected, right?  Yes, as you said, one reason to "let everything burn" w/o power cycling is the jam to the camera (and etc) TC boxes and slates.  Systems that use wireless TC to make the camera boxes "check in" with the mothership can update/rejam automatically.  Or....you can jam in the AM, let it all burn, check/rejam @ lunch and be good to go, as thousands of job-days have for many years....

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1 hour ago, hiro nakamura said:

I thought there is an internal battery keeping the timecode clock up the speed. I don't the on and off does everything to the timecode not sync... I might be wrong.

 

Hiro, yes I have been reading other people's comments about this. I thought the same thing. But, the slate and everything else with time code, has batteries and there is just a matter of time in those devices, before they drift. If you take that internal battery out, or it's dead, how long does it maintain time code? 

Sincerely,  Martin 

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I wrote on another thread on my Nomad was 1 or 2 sec behind from a 664 and a 633, we jammed at the same time for a joint production. After lunch we simply read out the TC, which I was behind. No shut down or power off.  It was -40 degree celsius, which was freezing cold tho.
Hiro 

Maybe the two 6xx were ahead and Nomad spot on?
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2 hours ago, hiro nakamura said:

I wrote on another thread on my Nomad was 1 or 2 sec behind from a 664 and a 633, we jammed at the same time for a joint production. After lunch we simply read out the TC, which I was behind. No shut down or power off.  It was -40 degree celsius, which was freezing cold tho.

Hiro 

Hiro,  Are you trying to get me to leave my Nomad out in the cold for this test? Ok, let me set up everything. Do I leave the slate out in the cold too? Or do we have one 40 degrees warmer than the other? The reference you made above, I would have wanted to jam 2 Deneckes, or in your case 3 Deneckes, and take a picture of the display of the 3 Denecke slates, and see what the time code was, both 5 seconds after jamming, and then later at lunch. 

Also, I haven't tried this either, I could sync 2 slates, 40 degrees apart, and then 10 hours later, check the sync of the 2, then, bring the cold slate up to temp and recheck.

Sincerely, Martin 

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or the SD units had the same temperature compensating method and the nomad had a different one.

Yes, very likely. But both are only spec'd for down to -20C. So maybe there system was off. Zaxcom doesn't list temperatures, but according to the published specs, Nomad should be a lot less accurate than 6xx.
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13 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

or the SD units had the same temperature compensating method and the nomad had a different one.

 

58 minutes ago, Constantin said:


Maybe the two 6xx were ahead and Nomad spot on?

You can see what I wrote Hiro, I didn't think to respond to all 3 at once. If you guys think up a test let me know. I could also leave one Nomad cold and keep the other one warm. Then check sync both as the are separated in tempera ture and then allow them both to warm up, then check again. The only method for this I trust, is syncing them both to Denecke and see what it says. 

Sincerely, Martin 

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Of interest, the display on the Nomad is no longer accurate, this of course is just the display, latency etc. It seems that maybe the Nomad display drifts, which I don't know why we would care much about that. Right?

We, and especially Zaxcom, should care if someone intends to actually use the advertised feature of the visual tc slate. This would be a bit annoying with a drifting (or just off-set?) display
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Just now, Constantin said:


Yes, very likely. But both are only spec'd for down to -20C. So maybe there system was off. Zaxcom doesn't list temperatures, but according to the published specs, Nomad should be a lot less accurate than 6xx.

Constantin, Agrred all. Although, I tested the erx3tcd, and in my testing, it is substantially more tc stable than the spec from provided by Zaxcom. 

Also everyone , just in case I didn't make clear how my test is done. I sync whatever device I am testing to a Denecke, (in Denecke we trust) then, ever how many hours, or days, later I take a second Denecke, sync that slate with the device I am testing, and take a picture, usually at 125th of a second and see what the picture says.

Sincerely, Martin 

1 minute ago, Constantin said:


We, and especially Zaxcom, should care if someone intends to actually use the advertised feature of the visual tc slate. This would be a bit annoying with a drifting (or just off-set?) display

Constantin, Sorry if I didn't make it clear. The built in slate function is designed to be "clapped" by pressing the menu button which provides a tone and a frozen slate time for camera and subsequent editing. I was NOT referring to that being out of sync, I was just taking a picture of the display, therefore not using that function as intended. A couple of years ago, I notified Zaxcom of a small issue with that function and I believe it was subsequently fixed. Sorry if I mislead you.

Sincerely, Martin 

 

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12 hours ago, MartinTheMixer said:

John, I guess I think opposite, why leave it on?

I just don't see what I would gain from that. And not that it is going to probably wear out that much sooner, but everything has a time, even if it's 50 years from now, that it will wear out. Thank you.

Sincerely, Martin 

I leave my Nomad on except at lunch or if there's going to be an extended period of no shooting.  I have the Nomad on the unswitched leg of my BDS so I have to use the Nomad switch to turn it off and on.  I use the BDS to turn the rest of the system off.  Wireless etc.  I did this because I would trip the fuse on the BDS once in awhile if I powered up all the wireless and the Nomad together.  

If you're doing a doc style shoot, leaving it on makes it that much quicker to get back up and running after a break.  Keeps any wear on the Nomad switch down as well. 

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35 minutes ago, berniebeaudry said:

I leave my Nomad on except at lunch or if there's going to be an extended period of no shooting.  I have the Nomad on the unswitched leg of my BDS so I have to use the Nomad switch to turn it off and on.  I use the BDS to turn the rest of the system off.  Wireless etc.  I did this because I would trip the fuse on the BDS once in awhile if I powered up all the wireless and the Nomad together.  

If you're doing a doc style shoot, leaving it on makes it that much quicker to get back up and running after a break.  Keeps any wear on the Nomad switch down as well. 

Bernie, I have seen people talk about tripping the breaker on their BDS before, and I really don't understand that. How many amps are you pulling through it? What is your voltage? Also, I have a really good understanding of switches and the cycle ratings of switches, so I think that's one of my least worries that I will flip the switch and the power won't come on. Although you do have me thinking maybe a 2nd switch, that would bypass that switch, might not be a bad idea. Just like a second mag in a small airplane. As far as up-and-running goes, it only takes like 12 seconds or so to get it going, what kind of slave drivers are you working for that don't give you 12 seconds notice? Manic on their part does not create panic on my part. I just Made that up. You can use it if you like, just say "t.m. Martin" after you use it.

Sincerely,  Martin 

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