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M/S mic for documentaries


bohitomi

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@ haifai

 

actually I use a Zoom F4. I didn't check the manual in detail regarding M/S Options because I've never recorded in M/S 🙂 I could try to use an y-cabel to split the M/S Channels. So I could record two isolated tracks and two matrixed to M/S... have to think about that. First I will try out how it is to monitor a non matrixed M/S signal. I have no idea how that sounds.

 

I wanted to get Y-XLRs anyway to use it for saftey channels. The recorder has a function to record saftey tracks simmultaneously, but makes this on all channels. So you have two mains and two safeties. With an y-cable I could coulpe only the first two channels and use the other two channels seperately.

 

Greetings

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On 4/5/2017 at 4:47 AM, Mobilemike said:

Good point. The standard 72-shore lyres that come with most Rycote systems are too light to hold the weight of the RSM191 (it's a fairly heavy mic). If you contact Rycote though they can send you some firmer 82-shore lyres that support the mic better. 

-Mike

 

Rycote offers a really excellent selection of spare lyres with different degrees of stiffness. Last month I ordered some to modify a Rode Blimp. I'll need to make a couple of small spacer adapters but it's certainly easy.

 

I ordered the spares from Audiosense (Belgium) but I imagine any Rycote dealer can supply them.

 

This is the reference pages for the Lyres and other upgrade parts,

http://mymic.rycote.com/products/lyre/

 

And, for example, Audiosense lists them on their web page. They had a 3 week lead time though, in my case they didn't stock the parts. Confusingly, they list them as "Shockmounts and Suspensions" rather than "Spares" or "Upgrades".

 

Still, really useful and I found the prices  more than reasonable. 

 

https://www.audiosense.be/en/store/microphone-accessories.html?brand=rycote&category=shockmounts-suspensions&limit=96

 

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I would not overthink MS. It’s great to have, if only to quickly record stereo ambiances. I‘d always record the S channel, but monitor only the M. Make sure as much as possible sounds good in the M, the S then is a bonus when it works. 

Aside from MS, you can also simply treat your S mic as a second mic. So in your situation where you 4-5 protagonists you can boom one person and get other on the S mic, which looks sideways after all. Just make sure that the two mics will not be matrixed to stereo

 

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Thanks Constantin! Yes, maybe you're right. For now I have to work without M/S anyways in lack of a figure eight capsule. When you start (usually on a small budget) you have to make some compromises regarding the equipment and the tecniques you can use. There is so much gear one can buy, but only a few things you really need and use later on. So I have to start simple and improve on time. But it's good to know what options are available and to talk to experienced people. 

 

Greetings

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1 hour ago, pillepalle said:

Thanks Constantin! Yes, maybe you're right. For now I have to work without M/S anyways in lack of a figure eight capsule. When you start (usually on a small budget) you have to make some compromises regarding the equipment and the tecniques you can use. There is so much gear one can buy, but only a few things you really need and use later on. So I have to start simple and improve on time. But it's good to know what options are available and to talk to experienced people. 

 

Greetings

Although limited, you can use two cardioids for the S channel.

 

Place them perpendicularly to the axis of the M microphone, one pointing to the left and another one to the right. S will be the sum of the left microphone and the right microphone with the polarity reversed. Try to place the diaphragms as close as possible to minimize phasing issues though. Sound Devices added polarity reversal to the MixPre 3, so you can do this trick with it.

 

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Thanks for the suggestion, borjam. I'm sure it could work like that but it looses it's practicability. One reason why M/S is so popular in documentary is that it's a very compact setup that fits in comon windschreens and suspensions and has a fast setup time. You don't have to think about recording angles and how to position the mics, because there's only one way to use them. The whole point for me was, that it's difficult to boom dialogs in a documentary and you have to find a way to get them nevertheless. I'm not so interested in having stereo recordings of dialog as you usually pan them in the center anyways.

 

For the stereo recordings I do (mainly ambiece),  I'll use xy (when localization is important), or spaced supercardioids (in various angles) when I want to get more envelopement. 

 

Greetings

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10 minutes ago, pillepalle said:

One reason why M/S is so popular in documentary...

 

Interesting. I'm just not seeing much (or hardly any) M/S in my doc world. I'm not fully remembering all this thread, so perhaps this has already been covered. Do you think it might be a regional thing (as in more popular in Europe than in North America)? Or am I just not looking/hearing close enough?

 

 

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@ Jim Feely

 

Well... I'm surely the last person to ask what is comon on sets *g*

 

But all the sound guys that I've asked recommended M/S. With every other technique you have a fixed recording angle, that might not be right in that certain situation. It's super flexible because you can use it with nearly every microphone as Mid-Channel, depending on what you want to achieve. And it's super compact and easy to use. If you have little time to setup it might be the best choice...

 

Greetings

 

Ps: Interesting Poll, Vincent. So most people go for an 180 degree recording angle and good localisation of the sound sources.

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28 minutes ago, Jim Feeley said:

 

Interesting. I'm just not seeing much (or hardly any) M/S in my doc world. I'm not fully remembering all this thread, so perhaps this has already been covered. Do you think it might be a regional thing (as in more popular in Europe than in North America)? Or am I just not looking/hearing close enough?

 

 

 

I can only speak for myself but the main reason that I prefer M/S is that my M/S rigs (Sennheiser 418 or 30/60 and sometimes 30/70 combo) are easily used in mono (M only) no drawbacks, no changing mics/ poles, just record and monitor the M signal and pretend you're working with a mono shotgun mic until you need stereo. The 30/60 or 30/70 are a bit heavy though.

In post I like the control and compatibility. I used to mix in 5.1 for a little while (not anymore) and the M/S tracks worked great through all the down-mixing, no surprises.

Dedicated XY rigs, which I also use sometimes, are nice but not practical in a run and gun situation, same for AB and Ambisonics.

 

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53 minutes ago, pillepalle said:

Thanks for the suggestion, borjam. I'm sure it could work like that but it looses it's practicability. One reason why M/S is so popular in documentary is that it's a very compact setup that fits in comon windschreens and suspensions and has a fast setup time. You don't have to think about recording angles and how to position the mics, because there's only one way to use them. The whole point for me was, that it's difficult to boom dialogs in a documentary and you have to find a way to get them nevertheless. I'm not so interested in having stereo recordings of dialog as you usually pan them in the center anyways.

 

For the stereo recordings I do (mainly ambiece),  I'll use xy (when localization is important), or spaced supercardioids (in various angles) when I want to get more envelopement. 

 

Greetings

OT. XY vs Spaced. I did a little experimentation recently with a spaced pair (of omnis at c.60cm) while on holiday in Sri Lanka and I found the localisation to be very good (in the headphones). This really stood out when I went for an early morning bird watching walk with the rig - it was almost freaky how quickly and accurately I could identify the position of the bird singing (in a jungle like environment) just through the HPs. It made me consider if the elephants (which are part of the wildlife of the island) were better at locating the position of a sound because their hearing must be similarly spaced.

 

RE VR's stereo ambience poll: Don't post people prefer to do their own if they can (and the cynic in me thinks perhaps an XY gives them a stronger case to use some budget to record an ambience with something else ; )? Perhaps the indicated preference for XY is to do with it being easier to carry and position on a busy shoot than a spaced pair and therefor the recordings are in general a bit stronger. Interesting that the first 2 on the list are phase co-incident - The Immoral Mr. Teas and myself often enjoy a disagreement about the merits or otherwise of this.

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I think what I took from the poll results and all the responses from the post people in the group, is to ask the post person what they prefer, if at all (some really are not bothered with ambience stereo files at all, go figure). Of course that is that you already know the post house. Basically what I already try to do if possible. 


To put it very blunt; it doesn't matter shit what WE like or prefer (Location sound recordists), but it matters what THEY want (post houses). 

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2 hours ago, haifai said:

working in berlin for different doc productions tv and cinema its mostly ms or double ms, its practical for booming, very compact, no problems with windshields and you always have a dedicated mid mic of your choice...

Interesting. Do you ever boom with double Ms, or is it strictly for ambiance?

 

I often work with probably a not so common combo, Cs3e and Ate208. Saves time for setups, and allows to get some ambiance or stereoimaging of action.

 

I have a cabled Ortf rig at times, but more often than not, there is not much time to set it up and I imagine that an ambiance recorded with the same shotgun mic makes sense if the ambiance is used to fill in gaps of the dialogue if needed. 

 

All tho I really prefer AB if I record ambiance outside of set for an immersive experience.

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20 hours ago, Vincent R. said:


To put it very blunt; it doesn't matter shit what WE like or prefer (Location sound recordists), but it matters what THEY want (post houses). 

 

And to that end it makes a lot more sense to use an M/S rig and just not use the S, rather than use an XY rig where you may end up with two bad signals. Maybe what they meant when they chose XY was that they prefer matrixed MS?

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@Mattias Larsen i used dms until now only for ambiance recording, i   only have a stereo connbox in my windshield and took my km140 with an „active“ cable for the rear channel, next project is to make a connbox for dms... a friend of mine is booming dms with a schoeps setup, cmit and two ccm in a cinela, i had his files for postproduction and sometimes it was good to have.

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