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transcription protocol


greg sextro

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Hey Gang,

Hoping you could help me out with this.

What is the purpose of a transcription (made for docs, or commercials, etc...) in terms of the timecode that is put on it?  Who uses it?  For what purpose does the timecode serve in that regard? 

Does an editor expect that the timecode will correspond to the timecode on a tape from telecine or video camera?  I've read/heard some use it to do searches in, say, a word doc so that one can locate easily where to find a bit on a tape...

Here's why I ask:

I have a shoot where they will be filming on multiple formats - film and the red camera, and I'm wondering if I should just be sending TOD timecode to the transcription recorder (as I am with the slate and my 744t) or if shooting on the red camera that I should be pulling timecode from that (if they were in record run).  I'm guessing I could convince them to run TOD on the red camera as well and sync it off my system, but some cameramen and ACs hate that.

Does a transcription service expect that the timecode frame rate will be consistent for any given project?

Thanks for any input,

-Greg-

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Hey, Greg

Editorial uses the resulting transcript to find relevant material from the interview or event. The transcript usually has timecodes noted in the margin. Editorial can then find the footage they want by making a "paper cut" of an interview.

I don't think the frame rate is very important to the transcriptionists as long as they know what it is. But the timecode should match the material the editor is going to work from. So when you're working with the Red, jam the camera to match your recording's timecode. Note that I'm pretty sure the Red is a TOD device only, and that the current firmware does allow for cross-jamming, so you can be at 29.97 and it can be at 23.98 if you desire. You'll have to re-jam the Red after every power down-power up cycle as well. Or you can use a Lock-It on the camera.

I'd recommend that for the film portion, the transcription recording be done after the transfer, since the resulting material that the editors are going to work from will not have the same timecode as your timecode on the original recording.

Best regards,

Jim

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  • 3 weeks later...

Best ask any production what they precisely need and supplied on what format.

A "transcription" copy can serve as a backup to camera sound especially if feeding by radio.

Also as source of material for production of a book (I had this on "Victoria's Empire")

So is it an audio a CD wanted or BWAV files on CDR

I understand the love of camera guys preferring rec run code but the RED does allow a

second timecode to be recorded so free run ot TOD would allow logging to be accurate.

My thoughts so far

mike

www.mikewestgatesound.co.nz

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  • 3 years later...

I'd like to bump this thread and attach a valuable learning experience I had today. I hope my experience helps some of you during your transcription endeavors.

In sum, I'm going to post a workflow that I think is theoretically sound, but one that is hampered enormously by inferior equipment, thereby yielding inferior results. This was a workflow that was deemed appropriate by the client and is their status quo. My hunch is that they don't know there is a better way. I think there is, and I hope to prove it the next time I have the chance.

Workflow Requested & Delivered:

  • MIX PRE

    • Boom panned RIGHT, Lav panned LEFT
    • [*]Breakaway to SONY F3

      [*]Tape Out of MIX PRE to (CH 1 - Left) of ZOOM H4N

      [*]Sony F3 BNC TC out to (CH 2 - Right) of ZOOM H4N

      • w/BNC converter, -25dB attenuator and XLR converter attached
      • i.e., Program left, TC Right

      [*]ZOOM recording @ 160Kbps MP3

      • No return monitor on ZOOM

Problems with Workflow Above:

  • ZOOM H4N is inferior for this purpose. Namely, the XLR inputs (CH.1 and CH.2) on the ZOOM are for the LEFT and RIGHT sides of one STEREO file, not channels 1 and 2 like on a multi-channel digital recorder (two separate mono files). The result was that the TC bleed was HORRENDOUS and no amount of attenuation within the ZOOM could eliminate the bleed from TC channel into Program channel. I know these are 'just transcription files', but it was really bad. Had the ZOOM set to 0.1 on both channels, which is the highest amount of attenuation, or rather the lowest recording level allowable by the ZOOM.
  • No way to adequately monitor ZOOM transcription recording. Had to 'test' prior to shoot. Was unsatisfied during test, but limited by existing equipment.
  • Listening to the files for just a moment when I got home reinforced what I heard while on location, which is that the TC channel bled into the Program channel enough that the transcription house folks aren't going to enjoy transcription. Will it work? Yes. Have they done this in the past? Sure, they (client, not transcription house) asked me to do it this way. But it sounds horrible, and I know there is a better way.
  • The BNC adapter, Attenuator and XLR adapter combination made the Zoom a 14" long behemoth in the bag. It was simply horrible to deal with, and would be outrageous for any run and gun that requires transcription.
  • This workflow forced single-system primary sound recording only (breakaway to F3). This is something I am adamantly against unless put in a situation where I have no choice. I don't care how 'good' the camera is. I'm personally uncomfortable recording just single-system with no backups. I monitored the return signal only, never the mixer, so I know program to camera was proper... but again, no backups...

Future Workflow:

Advantages of Future Workflow:

  • Mixer and recorder for transcription are single unit. Eliminates ZOOM.
  • From Sound Devices link above:


    • "When recording time code stamped MP3 files, both channels of audio are available." This leaves options for using the MP3 as an emergency backup file since it can contain both Lav and Boom channels in this setup instance.


    • "Also, the MP3 file will play back normally without hearing the recorded time code signal in one channel."


    • [*]

      ​It might not be the best audio in the world, but in a pinch, a proper 160kbps MP3 could save the day if there were a problem with the camera sound. Again, not suggested so don't think I'm saying that, but the crap I got from the ZOOM was simply trash. Unusable as even the most emergency backup in this scenario.

      [*]

      552 easily capable of monitoring return from camera or transcription audio when MP3 embedded.

      [*]

      Single cable from BNC TC out F3 to 552 TC IN.

      [*]

      552 TC IN light shows valid timecode and illuminates to show valid TC signal strength.

      [*]

      From SD link above, "Time code will not be audible when recording or playing back through the mixer." So even if you record LTC timecode to a track instead of an imbedded TC file, you wont' have to listen to it during playback through the mixer.

Notes/Points of Interest:

  • Post house / transcription house must be able to accept TC embedded MP3 files per 'Future Workflow' above. Not all programs are capable of this, in which case you can simply record LTC timecode to a channel. See link above for both methods.
  • It's possible that transcription houses don't give a frig about sound quality and that I'm over-reacting, but I think this was a failed status quo that should be updated anytime the situation is right and the client will allow it.
  • It's possible I did something wrong on the ZOOM. I don't think so, and I even check with another mixer who was primary for a different room for the day (multiple interviews in different rooms), but it's possible that I did sometime wrong, and I'd love to learn and become a better mixer if in fact I did make a mistake.

In the end, I learned much about transcription to a ZOOM, gave the client what they asked for including clean sound to camera and learned that sometimes we are motivated to be better professionals by things we don't like. This was one of those things for me today.

8)

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That's all good. Another way is to forget TC on the MP3s for transcription and just convert your wav files (recorded with camera code, via cable or Lockit) to MP3. Pull a report of your wav files in Wave Agent--give that to the transcriber with the MP3s. The transcriber enters the start TC per file in their app, and gets TC hits matching camera from that. This has worked well for me in verite doco-bag situations where I needed to be rolling a full-fi backup (wireless hop or DSLR) AND the they wanted MP3s, with camera TC. The conversion is usually pretty fast, I turn then in with my wav files at the end of the day, or upload them to the transcriber later.

phil p

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I have aslo had mixed results using a zoom recorder for transcription with time code.


just convert your wav files (recorded with camera code, via cable or Lockit) to MP3.
[/CODE]

What are you using to convert that preserves the time code. I know that BWF Widget does it on PCs. but im not sure if something that works for MAC has popped up yet.

Brian

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  • 3 weeks later...

As a transcriber I can say we do care about audio quality, but not that much. The main thing that's annoying is not being able to hear the questions. Happens all the time and means I have to go back over the very off-mic mumbling lots, thus wasting my time.

Having TC bleed into the track is pretty annoying. Try listening to TC blips for more than a minute. Now do it for 12 hours straight. Yeah, it sucks.

In terms of the transcribers not being able to read TC, that's pretty bad. It's not hard to find software that'll do it. We use some that'll read pretty much every type of file, with or without TC. I've had files where the soundie has just read the TC into the slate mic which I've then manually set as the start point at the clap.

Next time you have to send sometime to transcribers who don't accept TC suggest someone else, maybe me? ;) £12 per 1000, regardless of turnaround time. Can't argue with that!

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I know I'm a bit late to this discussion, Alex, but have you downloaded the firmware update for the Zoom that allows for independent level control for channels 1 and 2? I've used a very similar workflow (Zoom, mp3@ 128kbps, tape out of 442) plenty of times with no TC bleed. One thing I was doing differently was that I was using the 1/4" inputs, not the XLRs.

I believe the XLR inputs are a mic level input and the 1/4" inputs are their version of line level, more for music instruments if I remember correctly.

The size of the adapters and attenuators is a real PITA, especially in run and gun mode, and I haven't figured a way around that.

From the Zoom Website:

<Common Specs>

●Balanced / Unbalanced Input: 2 x XLR-1/4"phone combo Jack ●Input Impedance: balanced input = 1kΩ balanced / pin 2 hot, unbalanced input = 480kΩ unbalanced ●Input Level: balanced input = -10 to -42dBm, unbalanced input = +2 to -32dBm

I sold my Zoom and was using my 744t as a transcription recorder until recently when I was running dual system and transcription. I ended up buying a Tascam something or other for that.

Marc

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I am using the latest software version, and can adjust each "channel" independently, however the bleed was still horrendous. I also had this confirmed just a week or so ago by another very experienced sound mixer who used the same workflow and has the same issue. Having said that, he did mention that some years ago he performed transcription services for someone and the Zoom did NOT bleed...

I'm curious to see if the 1/4" input has anything to do with attenuation levels as you mentioned, and boy would I be happy if that was the answer! I love simple fixes, and will have to give this a shot when I have some time.

I will still record my next transcription to the 552 since it was made for that, but always good to know the limits / capabilities of the Zoom H4n.

Thanks for the post!

8)

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