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Sound Devices Mix Pre-3 and Mix Pre-6


afewmoreyears

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4 hours ago, chrismedr said:

But probably their target group are a lot of DSLR users, where one could argue that it will indeed mix 3 or 4 balanced mics to the unbalanced stereo input of the camera, with the ISOs as a backup.

Or maybe they figured that the original MixPre has a very good reputation and thought why not keep using that name.

Yup, two very good reasons to use the MixPre name. 

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Straight from the horse's mouth: Generating TC from SD 633 to the Mixpre-6 "would require a 5-Pin LEMO TC to 1/8" cable and send linear timecode."

The only thing keeping me from buying it is preamp quality doubts. I'll have to wait until I can test one and then I'll make a decision.

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5 minutes ago, pocketworld said:

Straight from the horse's mouth: Generating TC from SD 633 to the Mixpre-6 "would require a 5-Pin LEMO TC to 1/8" cable and send linear timecode."

yes, that part is what I meant with TC is no problem. But it probably won't lock the clocks together the way they mentioned it does if you use the TC input over HDMI (which you can't send from the 633), so on long takes you probably get sub frame drifts (which is only a problem in special projects).

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2 hours ago, chrismedr said:

yes, that part is what I meant with TC is no problem. But it probably won't lock the clocks together the way they mentioned it does if you use the TC input over HDMI (which you can't send from the 633), so on long takes you probably get sub frame drifts (which is only a problem in special projects).

Just out of curiosity, what kind of length takes are you talking about for sub frame drifts?

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well, there are probably people here that know more about the nitty gritty tech behind these things, but I'll try to describe how I assume things work and hope others will jump in where I go astray..

In audio recording, TC is just a time stamp in the header marking the time the recording started, after that the recorder runs of it's own clock and further TC will be calculated through TC start flag + sample count.

So if you feed the Mix-Pre-6 by the TC of the 633, the TC flagging at the start would stay in sync indefinitely (since the MixPre would always adjust to the 633). Or with a simple example, lets say we record a one minute take now, and another in ten hours, and both would be in perfect sync TC wise.

Problem is once you keep running long takes, the clocks start to drift, so if we do one 10 hour long take, the flag at the beginning will be in perfect sync, but the clocks are not, so the sample count will drift, so one of the takes might be 9h59min59.8sec and the other 10h00min00.1sec long, so the end of the recording will be out of sync, and the only way to fix this is to stretch the recordings in post forcing a resample. 

The "proper" way to do this would be to use recorders which accepts a world clock and generate their audio samples based on that, so the recording would stay in sync indefinitely.

as to how fast the drift occurs without an external clock, it depends a lot on the devices used. with the video cameras where I did tests I was usually at least one frame off after an hour, not sure how well current audio recorders keep up, but just do a test - start a recording and slate it every hour for a few hours, then align and examine the waveform on the computer (TC is irrelevant for that test)

hope that clears a few things up
Chris

 

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On 4/19/2017 at 10:53 PM, josephboyle said:

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the downsides of having a combo input?

I know it doesn't necessarily matter if the sound quality is there, but does anyone else think that this looks sort of like a toy? I have always loved the rugged look and feel of Sound Devices products (I have a 744t that I adore), but this looks like a step in another direction. Maybe it is trying to be less intimidating for more inexperienced users?

I actually find the size and the look great, I use my 744t mainly for sfx and ambient recordings. I find it way too heavy and cumbersome, and even a small gig with an M/S Setup always feels like an expedition.....:( I was really hoping that SD will come up with something like that, my only worry is the preamp quality. I do hope that it would be the same as the 744t because hay..... the 744t is more then 10 years old!

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7 hours ago, itaro said:

I actually find the size and the look great, I use my 744t mainly for sfx and ambient recordings. I find it way too heavy and cumbersome, and even a small gig with an M/S Setup always feels like an expedition.....:( I was really hoping that SD will come up with something like that, my only worry is the preamp quality. I do hope that it would be the same as the 744t because hay..... the 744t is more then 10 years old!

I also like the size. Initially, some of the color and font choice is what made it look sort of toyish, but that was before more footage of it became available. I think it will look fine in real life. The sound quality is certainly the most important thing.

I've heard people complain that the 744t is too old and should be updated, but your statement highlights my thinking about it. If a 744t sounded excellent 10 years ago and still sounds excellent compared to anything else that is available today, what's the issue with it being 10 years old? I know there are some new features that are nice to have, but the core issue of sound quality is still there. I'm looking forward to hearing what these new Kashmir preamps sound like.

 

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2 hours ago, josephboyle said:

If a 744t sounded excellent 10 years ago and still sounds excellent compared to anything else that is available today, what's the issue with it being 10 years old? I know there are some new features that are nice to have, but the core issue of sound quality is still there.

I think it's exactly those missing features that people are referring to when they say it's a bit long in the tooth and certainly not sound quality.

If all you need is 2 mic preamps with adjustable gain and 2 additional ISO without gain control, and don't mind the size and weight or the price, it's still one of the best machines out there.

The MixPre however adds 2 more adjustable preamps, mix track, remote control over bluetooth, audio interface capability, etc all in a smaller, lighter and cheaper package, which makes the 744 look kinda dated. I love the build quality and the metering of the 744, but I'm not going to buy one* while I probably will pick up a MixPre as a second machine, and I think a lot of people will do the same.

(* I might change my mind when the used price tanks even further, but in europe they are still quite expensive)

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2 minutes ago, chrismedr said:

I think it's exactly those missing features that people are referring to when they say it's a bit long in the tooth and certainly not sound quality.

If all you need is 2 mic preamps with adjustable gain and 2 additional ISO without gain control, and don't mind the size and weight or the price, it's still one of the best machines out there.

The MixPre however adds 2 more adjustable preamps, mix track, remote control over bluetooth, audio interface capability, etc all in a smaller, lighter and cheaper package, which makes the 744 look kinda dated. I love the build quality and the metering of the 744, but I'm not going to buy one while I probably will pick up a MixPre as a second machine, and I think a lot of people will do the same.

I don't disagree with any of this. And, I am considering getting a Mix Pre 6 for some of these very issues. But, also I think people have a habit of wanting something new just for the sake of having something new. And I think we should be wary of this.

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@josephboyle That is not the case with the MixPre's, it is something completely new, especially coming from SD. I do not see it as a 744 or 633 (for that matter) replacement, and I am pretty sure that SD is not positioning them like this in the market. It is obvious that is eating from the Tascam/Zoom pie, a bit more expensive, but -maybe- with better analog circuitry for some serious use and modern features for the new video-blog crowd. There is nothing like this in the SD range, even if you own another more expensive recorder, MixPre seems like ticking a lot of boxes for not having in your arsenal, and for that price (and size and weight).. Sometimes completely new machines bring new ideas with them as well and then it is - BINGO!

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21 hours ago, josephboyle said:

I don't disagree with any of this. And, I am considering getting a Mix Pre 6 for some of these very issues. But, also I think people have a habit of wanting something new just for the sake of having something new. And I think we should be wary of this.

....and if thats what gets me go out more with a few kilos less on my back then sure, why not! :)

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Be weary..why..

I am one of those people that would buy this unit for no other reason than I want one, the Mix 3 pre... I see no problem in that.

  I'm thinking Wild lines...having to grab something and go fast to record something wild.. Away from my main unit and not wanting to even fire up the 633 bag rig..

As for the "Sound" I am absolutely sure it is fine.. I am basing this on the fine reputation of this company and the fine products they already are famous for. The "Sound" of those other SD products is just fine, they know what they need to deliver, even at a low price point.. I have faith... and am going to grab one.

  We're all adults, if you want something, go out and get it..

 

Generally you get what you pay for, in this case I think you get more...

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@Kisaha - Not sure if you understood what I was saying. I wasn't implying that this was a replacement of the 744t, but I was just offering a general thought (I know this is a thread about the Mix Pre 3 & 6, but it was based on @itaro's comment) about criticizing products or complaining about a lack of updates simply because of their age.

@afewmoreyears - For me, this is something to be wary of simply because of the technological environment that we have found ourselves in. People always want something better (which is fine), but then relegate older gear to the "dinosaur" category (something that I have heard the 744t referred to). When something is an excellent piece of gear, it's any excellent piece of gear, whether it's 10 years old or 20 or 50. But, as you say, we are all adults, so if you believe differently, that's fine with me. And as I mentioned before, I am also considering picking one of these up, and like you said, I have full confidence that it will sound great, being a Sound Devices product.

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@josephboyle Yes Joseph, I am fully aware of what you are saying and I fully agree, and in sound especially that is true more times than not. Even 30-40 years great Hi Fi systems are mostly, great! We still use designs from the 70's or even older than that (just how many cameras from the 70s or 80s people use these days, and how much sound equipment/microphones/headphones?!).

I was referring to this specific machine, that it is not a case of wanting the new bling. It is a tool that a lot of us wanted, for various reasons, that I hardly can find someone not NEEDING one (as a first recorder, as a backup recorder, as a B machine for some, as a rehearsal and music recording, as a usb interface and some other techy stuff, for dSLR shooters, for cameramen, for producers, for journalists maybe etc etc).

It will be an instant classic, will push the low cost category a lot forward (because it is putting pressure to other companies), and I just can't wait to see what this release going to bring in 6xx line.

Sometimes though equipment can become obsolete, it can't serve its purpose anymore, people and ideas too!

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53 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

@josephboyle Yes Joseph, I am fully aware of what you are saying and I fully agree, and in sound especially that is true more times than not. Even 30-40 years great Hi Fi systems are mostly, great! We still use designs from the 70's or even older than that (just how many cameras from the 70s or 80s people use these days, and how much sound equipment/microphones/headphones?!).

This is probably going off-topic, but I have to say that lenses from the 70s/80s are very sought after these days, and some people (including me) will argue that an Arri or Panavision film camera from that area is still producing nicer images then the latest digital camera (the same is harder to argue for tape recorders or wireless systems of that time). 

what has changed drastically, and this is true for both audio and picture, is size, cost and features - and the MixPre is pretty much on the front line on those counts imo.

chris 

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2 hours ago, chrismedr said:

This is probably going off-topic, but I have to say that lenses from the 70s/80s are very sought after these days, and some people (including me) will argue that an Arri or Panavision film camera from that area is still producing nicer images then the latest digital camera (the same is harder to argue for tape recorders or wireless systems of that time).

Off off topic, I miss film (filming) quality, projection quality ... and tape is perhaps becoming underated? The Nagra, running at it's meagre 15ips max speed, delivered excellent quality well utilised, far better than now realised by many, and studio and instrumentation machines went far further.

Perhaps these are now 'textures' now lost; the analogue flow of mic, preamp - or lens - remains ... but I agree on the picture front particularly, it no longer impresses me (acrylic isn't better than oils) and has sound really improved?

Back on topic - Jon and company .... we're really looking forward to seeing how the new recorders pan out. Myself (as Chris was) particularly in how the hdmi could be utilised as a word clock to sync with other units (other than a single camera).

Jez

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What about using something like the Palmer PLI-02 ( https://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pli02_trennuebertrager.htm ) on the unbalanced stereo out of the MixPre-6 to get a two channel balanced line level signal? For what I can tell, the impedances do match (Palmer i/o: 600 ohms, MixPre-6 stereo out: 500 ohms, transmission ratio: 1:1). You might loose a few dB of gain but still remain with a line level signal. Any opinions on that?

10789000_800.jpg

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3 hours ago, Janik Hampe said:

What about using something like the Palmer PLI-02 ( https://www.thomann.de/gb/palmer_pli02_trennuebertrager.htm ) on the unbalanced stereo out of the MixPre-6 to get a two channel balanced line level signal?

looks like an interesting box. I take it you're looking for a way to have longer cable runs to cameras with balanced inputs?

since you're in germany, I think the easiest would be to order one and if it doesn't work as expected send it back (as thomann has an excellent return policy). and let us know what you find : ) 

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22 hours ago, itaro said:

...So who's gonna get the first unit and give us a review about the preamps, especially compared to the 744t...mmm, I can't wait!

Waiting to hear from Ambient in Germany when they have mine in stock. Great company, easy to deal with and a couple of hundred bucks cheaper than buying in the UK.

WIll report in as soon as it gets here.

John

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