Motu clock and pre-amp upgrades/modifications

[Darren]

If you use, or are thinking about using, a MOTU interface, you may find this interesting.

There is a company called "Black Lion Audio" that performs upgrades to the pre-amps and the clocks on several MOTU products.  I don't often use the analog inputs of my Traveler but I'm always interested in having the best clock available so I have just sent mine in for modification.

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.blacklionaudio.com/motu_firewire_mod.html

-Darren

[larry long]

I would guess that the Motu Ultralite would have these same issues.

I also wonder about that clock and how reliable it would be without external sync.

LL

[Philip Perkins]

I would guess that the Motu Ultralite would have these same issues.

I also wonder about that clock and how reliable it would be without external sync.

LL

MOTU's clock are pretty UNreliable w/o external sync, like frames off per hour.  If the BL mods make it have a clock as reliable as what's in a Lockit or a stand alone recorder, then that would be a great thing.

Philip Perkins

[larry long]

Yeah I just sent them an email about the Ultralite.

If they won't mod it then I guess I'll send it back and get the traveler for the Aes/ebu inputs so I can use that for sync.

Just liked the small package.

Larry

[Darren]

MOTU's clock are pretty UNreliable w/o external sync, like frames off per hour.  If the BL mods make it have a clock as reliable as what's in a Lockit or a stand alone recorder, then that would be a great thing.

Hi Philip,

You are definitely correct in that you currently would not want to use a MOTU as your timecode master.  I'm assuming that that is what you are referring to above as you can certainly use the Traveler to as a Master (word) clock without having to sync it externally.  Nice as it would be, the entire Traveler costs less than a GR-1 and MUCH less than an Ambient master clock so asking it to also be your timecode master might be expecting too much of it.

That being said, It will be interesting when it comes back to see if lower jitter in the clock translates into good enough t/c freewheeling specs for it to become a Master timecode clock.

Best,

Darren

[Darren]

Yeah I just sent them an email about the Ultralite.

If they won't mod it then I guess I'll send it back and get the traveler for the Aes/ebu inputs so I can use that for sync.

Just liked the small package.

Larry,

IMHO, you'd be much happier with the Traveler anyway.  As you acquire more digital equipment, at some point you may find yourself backed into a corner without the additional sync options.  I'm sure I've mentioned this before but the size of the Traveler won't bother you if you keep keep your laptop on top of it.  You can see this on the photo that I posted to the images section.

Best,

Darren

[larry long]

Darren,

I read your post, did some looking around on the net, packed up the Ultralite and I'm having a Traveler sent to me. Yea I mean you're right, both you and Phillip have pointed this out to me. I look forward to getting it. Tell me though, does the laptop sit comfortably on top of it? Does it get hot?

Thanks again,

Larry Long

[Darren]

Darren,

I read your post, did some looking around on the net, packed up the Ultralite and I'm having a Traveler sent to me. Yea I mean you're right, both you and Phillip have pointed this out to me. I look forward to getting it. Tell me though, does the laptop sit comfortably on top of it? Does it get hot?

I have no doubt that you will be very happy with this decision.  The Traveler does not seem to generate any heat that is discernible from touching the case.  The heat generated by the laptop does not have any negative effects on the Traveler.  If you prefer, the Traveler also comes with removable rack ears.  Forgive me for repeating myself once again, but yes, the Traveler does sit comfortably underneath of the laptop.  I have the two velcroed together.  The Traveler is almost identical in dimensions to the 15" laptop so they look like they were made for each other.  I suspect that this is not a coincidence.

Best,

Darren

[Jeff Wexler]

Darren, thanks for reposting your cart setup --- looks very good. I am sure you are right about the physical design of the Traveler intentionally providing a good base for the 15" PowerBook or MacBook Pro.

-  JW

[larry long]

Got an email back about the upgrade for the traveler.

" The new clock is extremely accurate, but it's not a TCXO, so I 

wouldn't recommend it for SMPTE work.  It's fantastic for audio, 

though.  I assume that maybe you'd record your SMPTE on to one of the 

MOTU's audio tracks, and then lock everything to that?

Right now, turnaround time is about 3-5 days.

Matt

Black Lion Audio"

I wonder why they couldn't use a TCXO clock in the unit?

LL

[Darren]

Also from Black Lion (comments in parenthesis are mine):

--------------------------

"...the existing clock in the MOTU is so drifty and jittery that your SMPTE problems (referring to the fact that the Traveler cannot be used as a SMPTE t/c master clock) don't surprise me.  I can hook the MOTU clock up to my frequency counter and watch the frequency wobble around like a drunken sailor.

The clock we install in these units, on the other hand, has a jitter spec of less than 10 picoseconds--that's pretty good for any clock--and deviation is under 50ppm's, which is lower than industry standard (referring to D/A clocks, not SMPTE clocks).  It's not a TCXO clock, though... Essentially, what you'll see with the new clock is a much tighter, more focused audio signal.  While the internal clock is excellent for audio, it doesn't have the properties that your SMPTE clock currently has, so it's probably best to stick with your current convention (for timecode)."

--------------------------

As you can see, the new clock will still only have a spec of 50ppm.  This is still not accurate enough for t/c generation, especially when compared to the .1ppm clocks that the Denecke and Ambient master clock products have.  This is pretty much what I expected though; I did not really expect that this upgrade would enable the Traveler to be used as a SMPTE master clock.  It would have been a nice bonus if it did, however.

The main reason for this upgrade is improved audio quality.  Between the better clock and the new pre-amps, this modification should most definitely accomplish that.  Time will tell, as they have finished modifying my Traveler and it is now enroute back to me.

Best,

Darren

[larry long]

Darren,

So if I wanted to use the traveler as my main recorder and not just a backup I should just get a standalone masterclock huh?

LL

[Darren]

Darren,

So if I wanted to use the traveler as my main recorder and not just a backup I should just get a standalone masterclock huh?

Not necessarily.  If you are going to run a full time backup, and your backup recorder already has a good timecode clock (SD, Fostex, etc.), you could still use your backup recorder as the master timecode clock.  Just feed the t/c output of your backup recorder into one of the motu's analog inputs.  You could then choose to use your MOTU's internal clock as a (word) sync source, or have the Traveler sync its (word) clock to the incoming t/c.  This could save you the expense of dedicated word or timecode masterclocks.

That being said, one advantage of using a GR-1, or similar is that it is a self contained battery powered unit that you can leave running all of the time.  If you leave your t/c generator running, you will not need to re-jam your slates after powering down the rest of your system for a move or to conserve batteries.  However this can also be accomplished by transmitting your t/c as well.

You really need to think about your entire system in order to determine what is the best method of clocking and achieving reliable t/c for your specific needs.  The more digital equipment that you have, the more thought you have to put into it.  Each device has to be clocked.  As mentioned many times here, you can only have one master word clock.  Everything else must be slaved from that.  Which device you choose to be your master and what method you choose to slave the rest of your devices should be well thought out and tested thoroughly.  Achieving reliable accurate t/c is the easy part.

-Darren

[Philip Perkins]

So Darren--how is the sound of the modified Traveler?  Better, like they said?  I'm due to send mine in soon, I wondered what your conclusions were about Black Lion?

Philip Perkins

[tomholman]

Hello Darren, Philip, Larry, Doug & Group,

Still forging on with my non-linear attempt for use on commercials and shorter projects here in NYC.  Don't know if you have seen my first posts on this forum (1. To Doug T. in "for sale/WTB".. DVD-RAM & 2. Hello to the moderator) to get my background.

I should probably just buy a Deva IV & a SD 744, but somehow I thought it would be fun to start out learning on Mac, Boom Recorder, Motu & HHB dat as TC gen (and still primary machine).

After 2 mouths of research my mind is going on overload.

I did buy Boom Recorder, Firewire DVD-RAM, Motu ulralite & am starting some machine work to mod my cart.  I think the ultralite was a mistake.

This is the note I sent to Black Lion, but Matt is not around:

I have just purchased a Motu Ultralite to work with

a Mac Powerbook G4 and software called Boom Recorder.

The application is to record location sound for film / TV.

I would feed the mixer channel direct outs to the Motu at line level.

The plan is to feed master clock time code to "Boom Recorder"

through one of the ultalight inputs (channel .

Boom Recorder will use this time code to time stamp the files.

I was under the impression (From Dave at Motu) that the

Ultralite will automatically find the time code on input 8 and

use it to reference the internal clock.  Therefore making it (more) stable.

Questions:

Do you think this is true?

Would I need your clock mod?

Would the input mod. help since I' m at line level?

Thank you in advance for honest answers.

I Just saw that tread in Ramps about the 1 hr. music record.

Hope I don't have that problem.

I actually just recorded a broadway (1 women) play last night 50 Min. non stop.

2 Panasonic HD Varicams, I requested 2 Denecke SB-T tri-level sync boxes.

Called the cam rental house twice the day before.

They gave the AC's the wrong info and we had quite a go around for a while on set.

I recorded to the 2 cameras w/ 2 schoeps &  radio mic in hair & Dat's - with a stereo

mix down of the 11 track house off stage, effects & music playback program.

29.97ND, Dat time of day as master clock. Cam's in free run slave mode.

Wouldn't want to have been testing a computer set up on that yet.

It worked out great & first reports from post are good.

Questions to the group:

Are you happy with the Black Lion analog mod?

Does it sound better?

Did anyone do the clock mod too?

Does anyone use the Ultralite?

Does anyone output word clock from an HHB or Ambient to the Motu Traveler?

Has anyone done long takes with the traveler w/o word clock.

Any Boom Recorder / Motu / DVD-RAM in real time folks out there?

This is probably way to much stuff for one post, but Thank You Very Much for any thoughts.

Best, Tom

[takev]

Hello,

Dave from MOTU is correct, the Ultralight will lock its internal sample clock to the SMPTE signal (on channel . Use the MOTU SMPTE Setup utility to choose the correct frame rate, and to set the clock source to "SMPTE". The lock light on the Ultralight should turn on when it finds the SMPTE signal.

From what I understand the clock mod does not necessarily make the MOTU keep better time. The mod makes the clock more stable (less jitter), this will increase the accuracy of the AD (lower noise floor).

Cheers,

    Take

[Philip Perkins]

The Motu boxes will clock themselves to incoming TC on an audio input, but they don't do this automatically.  You have to choose the clock source for the interface in "firewire console", an app that comes with the Motu boxes.  The recording software can then also be told which audio channel the TC is on and use that for time stamping.  As Take and others have said in other posts, this is the only way to make sure that there is no latency between

the TC generated time and the TC stamp as applied to the audio, since both audio and TC are coming thru the same interface and convertors. 

Philip Perkins

[Philip Perkins]

Hello Darren, Philip, Larry, Doug & Group,

Questions to the group:

Are you happy with the Black Lion analog mod?

Does it sound better?

Did anyone do the clock mod too?

Does anyone use the Ultralite?

Does anyone output word clock from an HHB or Ambient to the Motu Traveler?

Has anyone done long takes with the traveler w/o word clock.

Any Boom Recorder / Motu / DVD-RAM in real time folks out there?

--I still haven't had time to send my Traveler in to BL.  Sounds good from what I've heard.  The clock mod won't help us w/ sync issues.

--I passed on the Ultralite, the Traveler wasn't that much bigger and it does more stuff.

--I have used the WC out from an HHB DAT to drive the WC in of the Traveler (also using the HHB as the TC generator).  Worked fine.  Ditto w/ Denecke SB2 and SD recorders, as well as TC coming from video cameras or a TC generator in a multicam setup.

--I did some hour plus takes w/o word clock on the Traveler and they were out of sync by the end.  You have to clock it for long sync takes--no getting around it.  For short takes, like on a commercial etc, I had no problem.

--I got a portable bus-powered DVDRAM drive for my SD recorder--I plan to try it with the MOTU / Metacorder set up as well.  W/ the SD recorder it is a real-time deal (they require 5x DVDRAMs however.)  W/ Metacorder it's actually a "mirror-drive" deal as in Deva, so not really "real time", more  "between-time".

Philip Perkins

[Darren]

"Questions to the group:

Are you happy with the Black Lion analog mod?

Does it sound better?

Did anyone do the clock mod too?

Does anyone use the Ultralite?

Does anyone output word clock from an HHB or Ambient to the Motu Traveler?

Has anyone done long takes with the traveler w/o word clock.

Any Boom Recorder / Motu / DVD-RAM in real time folks out there?"

Hi Tom,

As far as a clock source for your MOTU, Dave at MOTU was correct in his statement to you that you can clock to your incoming timecode and that this will give you a more accurate clock source.  The MOTU won't "automatically" find the incoming t/c on analog input 8.  You will use the MOTU SMPTE console software to tell the MOTU where the t/c is and that you want to lock to it.  This WILL give you an extremely accurate clock source and will guarantee you sample accurate timecode.  This is definitely the best way to clock your system and the system that I recommend.  If need be, any other digital devices that you have would then be clocked from your MOTU.

Not only does this do away with the need to have your clock modified, but I cannot recommend the BL clock mod.  To make a long story short, I had a lot of problems with their mod and ended up having to have it removed.  Unfortunately, I cannot offer you any useful comments on their pre-amp mod as I never really used them as I feed all of my iso tracks in through the ADAT inputs.

As far as the Ultralite goes, the only reason for you to regret your purchasing decision would be that the Ultralite wasn't meeting your I/O needs as I'm fairly confident that the quality of the two are quite similar.  That being said, I'm of the opinion that for not too much more money, when you choose a larger interface, you are buying yourself a little breathing room with regards to clocking and I/O flexibility.  You may not need it now, but you may well need it when you want to integrate your next digital purchase into your cart.

Cheers,

Darren

[tomholman]

Hi Take, Philip & Darren,

You guys are great.  Thank you very much for your help.

I was told that locking to the 80 bit timecode word does not help an internal sampling clock because the first 16 bits of the TC word somehow throws something off???

Do we think that since the Motu products "lock " in some form to the incomming  SMPTE time code that it makes the Motu internal sample clock more stable "less jitter" therefore sound any better?

Is Motu Dave os Black Lion Matt out there?

Any thoughts?

I'll keep you posted when I get it togeather.

Thanks again.

I don't know if most of the group gets the Gotham Sound news letter, but there is a good story on BWF in this months Gazette.

Here's the link:

http://www.imakenews.com/gothamsound/e_article000690138.cfm?x=b8w783N,b483lqWt

If it does not work just go to gothamsound.com

Best,  Tom

[takev]

I was told that locking to the 80 bit timecode word does not help an internal sampling clock because the first 16 bits of the TC word somehow throws something off???

There is nothing special about the first 16 bits compared to the other bits (not counting the meaning of the bits of course). If you record the timecode signal as audio and display it in a wave form editor, you will see it is just a continues stream of bits.

An PLL synthesizer would look at transitions and lock to its lower frequency component (0 bits have half the frequency of 1 bits).

Do we think that since the Motu products "lock " in some form to the incomming  SMPTE time code that it makes the Motu internal sample clock more stable "less jitter" therefore sound any better?

No, the jitter remains. It does not matter if you let it run freely, locked to SMPTE or locked to word clock. Non of the external clocks will drive the AD converter directly. Rather the internal clock will be tunes to the external clock.

It does reduce wander and drift.

In telecommunication, wander are long-term random variations of the significant instants of a digital signal from their ideal positions.

Note 1: Wander variations are those that occur over a period greater than 1 s (second).

Note 2: Jitter, swim, wander, and drift have increasing periods of variation in that order.

Cheers,

    Take